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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 01:57:54 [Permalink]
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I was accused of using "far left" sources by a person who wasn't afraid to use sources like Frontpagemag.com. My sources attempt to be correct. There is no evidence that Frontpagemag.com attempts to be correct. All sources, in the U.S., are far right, to me. They are all slanted. The point is not whether they are left or right, but whether they are they wrong.
Someone attempted to persuade me about a particular subject by showing me a number of newspaper articles that showed they were correct. The newspaper articles simply and obviously were just repeating rumors. My "far left" sources were not proved wrong, they were just slammed as "far left." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/20/2007 09:30:02 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 02/20/2007 : 11:09:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
So you don't think he knows that already?
That's what this whole debate is about. Conservative pundits use manipulative language...
I am not a conservative pundit.
If the glove fits...
And boy, did he jump on that one.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 11:31:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
That's what this whole debate is about. Conservative pundits use manipulative language to discredit their opposition, and mislabeling what is rightfully "moderate left" or simply "left" politics far left is absolutely a conscious effort to shift the political center in America. I just wasn't aware they had already succeeding in doing so, which is what you seem to be arguing, and that in fact we must simply accept the neocon redistricting of the political boundaries in this country as a settled matter.
You've got it backwards. What I and others have said is that when compared to global "traditional" political standards, the Democrats are in fact right of center. American "liberals" are simply less conservative than the Republicans, and so lie more to the left than them. But the Democrats are not actually part of what most of the world would traditionally consider the "left wing." But we call them "the left" anyway, and not because of any neocon propaganda.
In other words, our "left" is everyone else's "moderate right." If you're going to apply "traditional" definitions, then someone on the "far left" in the U.S. would "traditionally" be a centrist, at worst. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2007 : 12:19:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
In other words, our "left" is everyone else's "moderate right." If you're going to apply "traditional" definitions, then someone on the "far left" in the U.S. would "traditionally" be a centrist, at worst.
Ok, here's the breakdown. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional American meaning of that term is highly inaccurate. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional global meaning of that term is insanely inaccurate. In both cases the term is not being used correctly, and is solely meant to unfairly characterize a reasonable position as extreme.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/20/2007 12:21:56 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 03:02:11 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure rebutting this is worth any more time so I'll be brief.quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
quote:
If all I did was to call you "far left" without specifically responding to anything you said, this would have some validity. But since that was just one off-hand comment among several posts where I went into detail on exactly why I think you're wrong on many issues, this claim doesn't make any sense.
I don't see it this way at all, no sense in repeating ourselves.
quote:
Since I do look at what you say and respond directly point-by-point to those points that I disagree with, this paragraph amounts to denial.
I don't see it this way either. Your responses have not been point by point. We could argue this all day. It's a waste of time.
quote:
I have given four specific reasons why I believe your opinions to be out of the mainstream. To then claim it's instead because you're “adamant the Republican's are not on the best track for the country” is nothing short of a lie. I never claimed that as a reason you are out of the mainstream.
I refuted every one of your 4 and they are clear evidence your perception of me is simply false. No sense going on about this either.
quote:
Again, claiming these opinions as my reasons for believing you're outside the mainstream is nothing short of a lie. Lot's of people believe these things who are mainstream, please don't lie and claim I said these opinions are why I think you're outside the mainstream.
This is your most disturbing position. Torture is mainstream. That is sick.
quote:
Whoa!
Look, I never claimed that not voting Republican was the same as “openly prejudiced against conservatives.” If that were my definition then I'd have to name myself as prejudiced against conservatives too.
I said what I was against and it wasn't all conservatives. You ignore what I said and believe something else. No sense wasting time on this.
quote:
[No, but your recent description of them as misogynistic rednecks does.
SOME. Look it up. It doesn't mean all and that is your claim.
quote:
That's a good one. Your example is a website that encouraged death threats for speaking out against the government. And I posted an article describing the right wing as distancing themselves from the website's main group it was so bad. And death threats are wrong, but you smear the entire Free Republic community for the actions of a small number.
No Mycroft, my example was the mainstream conservatives distanced themselves from this g |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 02/21/2007 03:05:18 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 08:40:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Ok, here's the breakdown. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional American meaning of that term is highly inaccurate. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional global meaning of that term is insanely inaccurate. In both cases the term is not being used correctly, and is solely meant to unfairly characterize a reasonable position as extreme.
I'm not so sure, especially after beskeptigal has responded to a self-described Democrat with this:The problem as I see it is, you like the right wing theocracy, over consuming lifestyle, and don't think it's bad the US has made enemies all over the world. If that's not "extreme," I don't know what is. She is "cut[ting] off a lot of dialog that might have useful information in it," by attributing to Mycroft and me positions we do not hold. The classic strawman tactics of a radical position that doesn't actually have evidence to support it. Anyone who's cut their skeptical teeth on creationists can see the exact same lack of logic and reason in beskeptigal right now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 10:15:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I was accused of using "far left" sources by a person who wasn't afraid to use sources like Frontpagemag.com. My sources attempt to be correct. There is no evidence that Frontpagemag.com attempts to be correct. All sources, in the U.S., are far right, to me. They are all slanted. The point is not whether they are left or right, but whether they are they wrong.
Frontpagemag.com and Democracy Now are both agenda driven media. I don't consider either of them "journalism" because I consider the role of journalism to bring information without bias, while these two sources each have an agenda to push.
quote:
Originally posted by GorgoSomeone attempted to persuade me about a particular subject by showing me a number of newspaper articles that showed they were correct. The newspaper articles simply and obviously were just repeating rumors. My "far left" sources were not proved wrong, they were just slammed as "far left."
And someone once slammed a source I used because it was Fox news. It didn't matter that the same story with the same facts was reported by all the major media, he dismissed it because Fox was at the top of my first google search.
You meet irrational people everywhere. The important thing is not to be one yourself. :) |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 10:24:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Ok, here's the breakdown. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional American meaning of that term is highly inaccurate. Calling beskep's politics "far left" using the traditional global meaning of that term is insanely inaccurate. In both cases the term is not being used correctly, and is solely meant to unfairly characterize a reasonable position as extreme.
You're right. The issue isn't the definition of "far left", it's if her positions are reasonable or not.
I posit that the reasons I listed, the extreme anti-corporate bias, the extreme anti-conservative bias, and the complete dismissal of traditional media in favor of advocacy media all show unreasonableness. I'll add further that the continual misrepresentation of her opponents points of view are further evidence.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 10:38:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Frontpagemag.com and Democracy Now are both agenda driven media. I don't consider either of them "journalism" because I consider the role of journalism to bring information without bias, while these two sources each have an agenda to push.
All media are agenda-driven media. The trick is to figure out what the agenda is.
Frontpagemag makes no attempt to connect with reality. Democracy Now does. DN is on the left side of liberal (which in the U.S. is now right-wing) non-corporate media source, which makes it less susceptible to the pressures that constrain the corporate media (which includes NPR now). Their agenda is not just profit, although, I'm sure all participants in DN now make their living by working for DN. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 11:19:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I'm not sure rebutting this is worth any more time so I'll be brief.
I don't see it this way either. Your responses have not been point by point. We could argue this all day. It's a waste of time.
I certainly understand that you see this differently.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I refuted every one of your 4 and they are clear evidence your perception of me is simply false. No sense going on about this either.
There are two uses of the word “refute”. One is to “deny the truth of”, the other is to “prove wrong.” Clearly you have denied the points I made, but I disagree that you have proven them wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
This is your most disturbing position. Torture is mainstream. That is sick.
Well, isn't that a gross misrepresentation of my views?
That there is a perfect example of your unreasonableness, your continual misrepresentation of the views of anyone who challenges you. I never said “torture is mainstream” nor anything like it. When I said “Lot's of people agree with these views” I was talking abut your views as described in that paragraph. So unless you're claiming you support torture, you can't parse that into a claim that I think it's mainstream.
Ironically, Humbert claimed I was trying to “smear” you as a radical. I wonder if he will show consistency by admonishing you for doing what he accused me of?
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I said what I was against and it wasn't all conservatives. You ignore what I said and believe something else. No sense wasting time on this.
In direct response to my saying you are openly prejudiced against conservatives, you said, ” So around the time of the 2004 election that would have been about half the country.” Clearly implying that “prejudiced against conservatives” is the same as not voting for them. Please correct your misrepresentation of what I said and try again.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
SOME. Look it up. It doesn't mean all and that is your claim.
You make a distinction now that you didn't make then. Even so, without evidence that any of the people who protested the Dixie Chicks are misogynistic red-necks, it's still a bigoted statement.
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
We differ in opinion about how much and you label that as anti-corporate prejudice. Seems like typical dismissive language to me.
It's not how we differ in opinion. It's how you construct your opinion.
Let me say it again:
You display an anti-corporate bias when you bring the wrongdoings of one corporation as evidence that other corporations in a completely different field are doing something wrong. It's a twiste |
| Edited by - Mycroft on 02/21/2007 11:21:06 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 11:21:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Mycroft:
I don't consider either of them "journalism" because I consider the role of journalism to bring information without bias, while these two sources each have an agenda to push.
Can you please direct me to an unbiased source of information?
It seems to me that we must look at many sources to arrive at something, and even that is colored by our own bias. That is the way of politics…
Also, just because a group has an agenda does not mean that what they are reporting is wrong. Unfortunately for us, again, it means that we must work harder to figure out if the story is credible.
To paraphrase what Yossarian (sp) said in Catch 22, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get me…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 16:17:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm not so sure, especially after beskeptigal has responded to a self-described Democrat with this:The problem as I see it is, you like the right wing theocracy, over consuming lifestyle, and don't think it's bad the US has made enemies all over the world.
If you mean Mycroft, then it's immaterial that he's a "self-described" Democrat, since it's his ability to correctly describe political positions that's in question.
quote:
If that's not "extreme," I don't know what is. She is "cut[ting] off a lot of dialog that might have useful information in it," by attributing to Mycroft and me positions we do not hold. The classic strawman tactics of a radical position that doesn't actually have evidence to support it. Anyone who's cut their skeptical teeth on creationists can see the exact same lack of logic and reason in beskeptigal right now.
At times, she has used extreme language. I've also seen her mischaracterize other people's positions. But that's a result of beskep's personality, not her politics, which is the subject of discussion. Her behavior is a separate matter.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/21/2007 16:53:14 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 16:47:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
You're right. The issue isn't the definition of "far left", it's if her positions are reasonable or not.
Her positions, yes, not her personality.
quote:
I posit that the reasons I listed, the extreme anti-corporate bias, the extreme anti-conservative bias, and the complete dismissal of traditional media in favor of advocacy media all show unreasonableness.
Despite your routine use of hyperbolic language in labeling these things "extreme," there is nothing extreme about them. The Democrats have been a pro-labor party for decades, traditionally siding with unions and evironmentalists over large companies that exploit workers or the environment. And beskep isn't wary of "traditional" media, she's pointing out the inherent dangers of allowing big business to take over control of traditional media, something which should make any liberal rightfully concerned. So just where are her politics outside the long-held platform of the Democratic party? They aren't.
quote:
I'll add further that the continual misrepresentation of her opponents points of view are further evidence.
She does do this, but from what I've seen, you've been just as guilty, including using overwrought language to mischaracterize any opposition to an unrestricted free market a "paranoid delusion." The Libertarian party is that way --------------->.
Also, I'd like to get back to your feigned disgust at my "abominable behavior." Right-wing shills routinely use inflammatory language to demean their opposition, as you have, then immediately put on this air of phoney piousness whenever they receive a negative reaction, as you have. Now let's be clear. I called you a G-rated invective which wouldn't even be censored out of a children's cartoon, yet you immediately used it as a springboard to leap onto your high horse. That duplicitous bullshit doesn't play with me. I speak plainly. If you're going to act like a dick, don't act shocked when someone calls you one.
That said, I'll make an effort to curb my language if it offends your sensibilities so much. However, I expect you to display better judgement in your choice of vocabulary as well.
Oh, and as far as needing to see evidence that there has been a concerted effort on the part of conservatives to change the vocabulary of politics, you tell me whether or not "liberal" means the same thing it did 15 years ago. Hell, tell me whether even the word "conservative" means what it did 15 years ago.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/21/2007 17:07:42 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 17:47:57 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
The Libertarian party is that way --------------->.
Hrrmmm... so pro-choice and pro-gay marriage is far right now days? Interesting.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2007 : 18:29:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Hrrmmm... so pro-choice and pro-gay marriage is far right now days? Interesting.
What? Nowhere is the term "far right" used in the portion you quoted, so I have no idea what you're referring to. However, most libertarians would be classified as social liberals, if that's what you mean, since they are against government oversight of any matter, whether it be personal or corporate.
Edited to add: If you took the direction of my arrow to indicate that I feel libertarians are far right, I apologize. It wasn't meant to be taken that way.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/21/2007 18:30:34 |
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My supposed left wing media sources
