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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2007 : 11:35:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Unbelievable! You say that even though none of the sources I cite make that claim!
quote:
But it is the detailed assessment of Iran's nuclear purchasing programme that will most most alarm western leaders, who have long refused to believe Tehran's insistence that it is not interested in developing nuclear weapons and is trying only to develop nuclear power for electricity. Governments in the west and elsewhere have also been dismayed by recent pronouncements from the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has said that Holocaust denial is a "scientific debate" and that Israel should be "wiped off the map".
(edited to bold in case someone misses it)
I see no reason to continue talking to someone who either can't or won't understand.
As to the rest, I would tend to use biased, but more correct sources like FAIR.ORG rather than corporate media's obviously biased, and obviously incorrect sources. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2681
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/26/2007 11:55:30 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 12:41:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
But it is the detailed assessment of Iran's nuclear purchasing programme that will most most alarm western leaders, who have long refused to believe Tehran's insistence that it is not interested in developing nuclear weapons and is trying only to develop nuclear power for electricity. Governments in the west and elsewhere have also been dismayed by recent pronouncements from the Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has said that Holocaust denial is a "scientific debate" and that Israel should be "wiped off the map".
(edited to bold in case someone misses it)
I do stand corrected.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I see no reason to continue talking to someone who either can't or won't understand.
You must find that a great relief. 
quote:
Originally posted by GorgoAs to the rest, I would tend to use biased, but more correct sources like FAIR.ORG rather than corporate media's obviously biased, and obviously incorrect sources. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2681
And what, exactly, makes FAIR more accurate than The Guardian?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 12:49:51 [Permalink]
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I'll apologize for my (maybe) hasty remarks and continue.
First, I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the U.S. bunker buster. I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the Guardian article not parroting the State Department lies about Ahmanenijad. (edited to say I did not see your remarks about being wrong about Israel being wiped off the map)
quote:
Does Iran need nuclear energy?
Doesn't matter what I "believe." I try not to believe things. I try to think, and then act on the data that I have. It is immaterial as to how much they need nuclear energy. They are entitled to pursue it given certain rules. It's also immaterial how much oil and gas they have. It's how much they are dependent on others for their energy needs. How much to they need others to refine their oil? What qualities does this oil have? These are questions that you should research before you "believe" things about Iran.quote:
Exactly how much credibility do you ascribe to Iranian Mullahs who claim not to want nuclear weapons? After years of turning down compromise after compromise, of thumbing their nose at the EU and the US, exactly how likely do you think it is that they're being honest?
You'll need to provide some credible evidence (other than the usual State Department handouts that you've provided thus far) that they have thumbed their noses at anything, or that it matters what credibility the mullahs have. What matters is what the IAEA finds, and they've found that there is no evidence of a nuclear weapons program. quote:
What exactly is it about this theocracy that makes you trust it on its word alone, while every other government on the earth is assumed to be duplicitous and dishonest?
Again, straw man. There is no reason for me to trust this theocracy. They are within the law, and they are abiding by the NPT.quote:
What does Westinghouse making money thirty years ago have to do with policy decisions today?
Again, the same people who thought Iran needed nuclear energy 30 years ago somehow don't think they need it today. Need me to repeat that again? The very same people who thought Iran needed nuclear energy 30 years ago, somehow don't think that Iran (apart from Mullahs and Shahs now, Iran) needs it today. NOT because of the difference between Mullahs and Shahs, they say they don't need it because they're sitting on (less than 30 years ago) massive oil reserves. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/26/2007 12:57:21 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 12:54:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
And what, exactly, makes FAIR more accurate than The Guardian?
You can ask that knowing that they (The Guardian) spread lies?
Corporate media is in it for the money. Most corporate media stopped putting money into investigations long ago. They tend, not always, but they tend, to simply regurgitate corporate and U.S. State Department handouts. This is a good example of that. See the thread on Srebenica for an excellent example of corporate media spreading lies. That does not mean that non-corporate media doesn't have problems, nor does it mean that everything corporate media does is a lie. You have to have some ability to think about what's being said and who is saying it and why. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 02/26/2007 12:55:51 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 12:59:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
You must find that a great relief.
I must say I apologized before seeing this post and I would find it a great relief to find out that I'm wrong about you. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 22:16:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'll apologize for my (maybe) hasty remarks and continue.
First, I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the U.S. bunker buster. I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the Guardian article not parroting the State Department lies about Ahmanenijad. (edited to say I did not see your remarks about being wrong about Israel being wiped off the map)
I see some clarification is needed:
I was wrong about US bunker buster technology. To the best of my knowledge the US was involved in research on new science that was hypothesized to be capable of producing a new bunker buster bomb. To the best of my knowledge, this program with de-funded without actually producing a working weapon. I had this weapon in mind without realizing that what was probably being discussed was the B61 mod 11, a nuclear bomb designed in the early 1960's with a recent modification (mod 11) designed to burry it deep in the ground if dropped from a high altitude. This is indeed a nuclear “bunker buster” bomb, even though it's never been tested (afaik) and critics say it won't work.
Further clarification:
I was wrong in claiming the Guarding did not quote Ahmadinejad statement about wiping Israel off the map. I disagree, however, that the Guardian was “parroting” any lies, State Department or otherwise. Ahmadinejad did make the statement, and even if the most apologetic translations from the likes of Juan Cole are used, it was still a highly inflammatory and threatening statement.
Further, I am not aware of how the official US State Department translation reads. I am aware that the New York Times stands behind their translation.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Does Iran need nuclear energy?
Doesn't matter what I "believe." I try not to believe things. I try to think, and then act on the data that I have. It is immaterial as to how much they need nuclear energy. They are entitled to pursue it given certain rules.
I can only imagine how you would respond to the same arguments made about corporations or politicians you disagree with. ”It doesn't matter what I believe about their motives, they are entitled to pursue their ends given certain rules…”
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's also immaterial how much oil and gas they have. It's how much they are dependent on others for their energy needs. How much to they need others to refine their oil? What qualities does this oil have? These are questions that you should research before you "believe" things about Iran.
And yet you seem to have formed opinions of Iran yourself. What research have you done and what are the results?
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
You'll need to provide some credible evidence (other than the usual State Department handouts that you've provided thus far) that they have thumbed their noses at anything, or that it matters what credibility the mullahs have. What matters is what the IAEA finds, and they've found that there is no ev |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 22:45:41 [Permalink]
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Ignoring the bickering above, sure, I'm "bothered" by Iran's part in escalating this situation. I do not want Iran to have nukes. But I'm not any more bothered by news in this article, or even the idea of Iran having nukes now than I am by lots of things in this world. If I sit and ponder it, I am pretty alarmed by the overall situation in North Korea. I fear that the regime will end very badly, one way or another. I am alarmed by the conflict between Pakistan and India, and the various conflicts China has with some of its territories. But I don't see any of these and other major world conflicts as clear and present dangers. It's all a lot of speculation and what-ifs. I really wish the USA would concentrate more on domestic issues, such as our worsening health care crisis. And if there is a major global issue that badly needs the USA's attention, it is global warming, not terrorism or the "axis of evil".
So do I count as a "leftist" who is "not bothered" by this news, Mycroft? What should I be thinking, feeling, and advocating on this issue? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/05/2007 22:47:49 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2007 : 23:29:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
So do I count as a "leftist" who is "not bothered" by this news, Mycroft? What should I be thinking, feeling, and advocating on this issue?
Of course not. By your own statement, you are bothered by it. :) |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 02:31:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
....
And what, exactly, makes FAIR more accurate than The Guardian?
The answer to this can be found simply by looking at the links.
Before you go off dismissing sources you have pigeon-holed as leftist, Mycroft, you might want to consider just what information it is you are looking at here. Decide to get alarmed about Iran and not the least bit suspicious of the Bush administration all you want, but at least take the time to consider your sources of information. Here are the sources, my comments follow after all of the links.
FAIR.ORG: Buying the Bush Line on Iran Nukes; Despite uncertainty, U.S. journalists take sides
quote:
How should U.S. journalists treat charges that Iran has a secret nuclear weapons program? On the one hand, the track record of White House allegations about the weapons programs of the “axis of evil” is decidedly poor. On the other hand, Iranian officials who claim their country has only a peaceful nuclear energy program have their own history of deceptions and evasions.
With a story marked by uncertainty, the journalist's job is to puncture official misinformation all around while digging for more solid information. Unfortunately, U.S. news media outlets have instead largely decided to echo White House charges despite the shortage of facts.
News articles in the New York Times, which often sets the tone for other news outlets, repeatedly treat the alleged Iranian nuclear weapons program as a matter of fact. A front-page Times story by reporter Patrick Tyler (6/27/05) mentioned that China might block “efforts to bring the issue of Iran's nuclear weapons program before the United Nations Security Council.” Another Times front-pager by Michael Gordon (10/19/04) suggested that a U.S.-friendly regime in Iraq might pressure “Iran to halt its nuclear weapons program.” And a Times article by Scott Shane (3/26/05), reporting on how U.S. intelligence on Iran is lacking, nevertheless took the administration's view when it referred to “Iran's quest for nuclear weapons.”
The paper also tips its hand toward the White House by emphasizing official charges about Iran, while downplaying conflicting information. For instance, a front-page Times report (3/15/04) quoted George W. Bush suggesting Iran was violating the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) by developing a nuclear weapons program: “We cannot allow rogue states that violate their commitments and defy the international community to undermine the NPT's fundamental role in strengthening international security.” Bush cited no evidence that Iran was violating the NPT; neither did his National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, who appeared in the article echoing his boss's views.
One had to look further down in the article—between parentheses, at the end of a paragraph—to learn that the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N. organization responsible for inspecting and monitoring NPT compliance, had found “no compelling evidence” of an Iranian weapons program.
Exaggerated certainty [snip]
Justifiable suspicions [snip]
Lacking context [snip]
Independent reporting [snip]
Go to the source for the snips of the information it provides.
MideastWeb Middle East Web Log; Did Iran launch a crash nuclear weapon program?
That blog reports on the IAEA so I just went to the original source instead: http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Focus/Iaea |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 06:14:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
I can only imagine how you would respond to the same arguments made about corporations or politicians you disagree with. ”It doesn't matter what I believe about their motives, they are entitled to pursue their ends given certain rules…”
This is a good illustration of how difficult it is to carry on a conversation with you. I agree that corporations are entitled to pursue their ends given certain rules. What is your point?
I didn't ever say it was a good idea for Iran or anyone to have nuclear technology. Humans can't handle it. However, what they are doing is legal. The U.S. has no legal right to bully them and certainly no right to attack them under the same rules. Do you even understand your point here?
There is no idiom "wipe off the map" in Iran. If you look at the totality of what he has said, he has said that if a referendum were taken of Palestinian and Israeli diaspora, there would be no Israel. He has said that the brutal and oppressive regime of Israel should end. That is the extent of it. He has also said that the Holocaust, if it happened, was Europe's fault. If they felt sorry for the Zionists, they should have found a place for them in Europe, instead of attacking Arabs.
Now, all of this is not brilliant thinking, but it is hardly suggesting genocide. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:08:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
You yourself implied they supported Iran's nuclear ambitions 30 years ago because Westinghouse could make a lot of money from it. If that's true, then it's not evidence at all that Iran needs nuclear energy today. It remains nothing more than a poor tu quoque argument.
You are not paying attention at all, or are not willing to comprehend. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:10:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Ignoring the bickering above,
But remarking on it enough to show you're above such abhorrent behavior. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:38:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
But remarking on it enough to show you're above such abhorrent behavior.
What the fuck, Gorgo? I'm obviously not above it since I've gotten into spats myself with you and Dude. The fact that I get into such petty back-n-forths myself was why my remark was funny. Cut the condescending assumptions and learn to take a playful jab. Christ.
Er, unless you meant the above sentence as a friendly jab in kind... Hmmm. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/06/2007 12:38:57 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 12:40:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Er, unless you meant the above sentence as a friendly jab in kind... Hmmm.
Hmm..... |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 19:42:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
You have no more right to judge me than do I to judge you. We each enter these discussions for our own reasons. I'll tell you in advance that your approval is not among my reasons.
It's not about my judgment of you, but my judgment of whether or not I spend my time spinning my wheels with people who are either playing games or with whom I am incapable of communicating for one reason or another. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Iranian Manhattan Project speeds along
