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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 11:55:03 [Permalink]
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| It isn't about disagreeing, it's about not comprehending. You either are incapable of comprehending what is on the page, or I am unable to express myself. You are not responding to what I see on the page. You are responding to something else completely. Time and again. How long should I go in circles? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 16:15:39 [Permalink]
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Seeing this thread, I am worried somewhat by the situation with Iran, but not overtly so. What worries me is that Iran does not fully cooporate with the IAEA. This lack of transparancy is a violation of the treaties they have signed.
However, from what I have read so far, this non-cooperation seems more a political game than a real threat. I have the idea they try to get some political gain out of not cooperating, like getting other countries to lift some of the embargoes on Iran. But I just don't think Iran is stupid enough to either use nukes themselves or sell them to terrorists. I think Irans leaders know damn well where the finger is going to be pointing when such a nuke turns up somewhere. And I don't think they are stupid enough to risk that.
In that veign, I'm much more worried about North Korea. That country really has a leader bordering on insanity (if not truly insane). I think the behavior of that country is much more unpredictable. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 17:48:33 [Permalink]
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tom wrote: quote:
In that veign, I'm much more worried about North Korea. That country really has a leader bordering on insanity (if not truly insane). I think the behavior of that country is much more unpredictable.
I think that the situation with N. Korea is more hopeless than it is unpredictable. N. Korean leaders have set up an unsustainable and isolated regime that can only be held together with extreme oppression. Even iron fists get tired.
Also, given the ultimately dire state of their situation, I think the leaders of N. Korea are not acting insane so much as they are practicing traditional ethnic face-saving behaviors that match with their level of desperation and isolation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2007 : 20:51:44 [Permalink]
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| I don't think face saving should be underestimated here and I worry that it is. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2007 : 06:43:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
First, I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the U.S. bunker buster. I'd like some acknowledgment that you were wrong about the Guardian article not parroting the State Department lies about Ahmanenijad. (edited to say I did not see your remarks about being wrong about Israel being wiped off the map)
Here's someone from the Guardian itself:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?itemid=10439
quote:
Let me give the last word to Juan Cole, with whom I began. "I am entirely aware that Ahmadinejad is hostile to Israel. The question is whether his intentions and capabilities would lead to a military attack, and whether therefore pre-emptive warfare is prescribed. I am saying no, and the boring philology is part of the reason for the no."
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 10:13:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Here's someone from the Guardian itself:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?itemid=10439
Which is an editorial citing Juan Cole, the academic who is of the minority opinion in the translation of Ahmadinejad's speech.
The irony here is that Cole's translation; "the regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time" isn't any less hostile than the more common "wiped off the map".
The claim that "he didn't really say that" and that it's a "lie" that serves the "hawks" kinda falls flat when you realize that even the apologists that push this alternative translation acknowledge that what he did say was just as inflammatory.
It kinda makes the whole argument over translation one big joke. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 10:39:05 [Permalink]
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| Of course it's a joke because no matter the translation, he is not saying that Iran will attack Israel. He is saying that he wishes that the oppressive regime which drove Arabs out of Palestine and makes Arabs second-class citizens would end. So do I. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 10:44:22 [Permalink]
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| "Wiping off the map" implies people being slaughtered, whereas hoping an oppressive regime would end, implies something much less hostile towards the people of the area. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 17:14:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"Wiping off the map" implies people being slaughtered, whereas hoping an oppressive regime would end, implies something much less hostile towards the people of the area.
"Vanish from the face of time" is quite a bit stronger as a statement then "hoping an oppressive regime would end". I think it is very clear that Iran has made statements towards Israel that are both hostile and threatening. I don't think they will act on the threats they made. But threats they are. Just as me saying that I will punch Mycroft in the face would be threat, no matter whether I have the intention of acting upon that threat. In this case, the context shows I say it in gest (I hope), but that context is clearly not present in the Iranian speach, regardless of which translation you pick. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 18:42:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
"Vanish from the face of time" is quite a bit stronger as a statement then "hoping an oppressive regime would end".
Again, they are talking about the regime, not the people. And again, I hope they disappear from the pages of time as well. I certainly wish no one ill, in fact, that is why I hope they disappear. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 21:58:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
"Wiping off the map" implies people being slaughtered, whereas hoping an oppressive regime would end, implies something much less hostile towards the people of the area.
Both phrases are idioms and thus defy precise definitions, however I don't see how “wiping off the map” implies any more slaughter than does “vanish from the pages of time.” If anything, the second one implies destruction so total that the subject is forgotten entirely. Unless you interpret the first one to mean creating a crater to be filled in by the Mediterranean Sea, it's hard to imagine a literal translation more ominous.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Of course it's a joke because no matter the translation, he is not saying that Iran will attack Israel…
I wonder if you have read the speech? He doesn't say directly he will attack Israel, but the speech certainly is full of Islamic-supremacist hatred and threats.
You can find it here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/30/weekinreview/30iran.html?ex=1175313600&en=c2037df2613d7f42&ei=5070
Check with bugmenot.com for a username and password if you prefer not to have an account there.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo …He is saying that he wishes that the oppressive regime which drove Arabs out of Palestine and makes Arabs second-class citizens would end. So do I.
So the real issue isn't that you think one translation is more or less threatening than the other, but that you don't think Ahmadinejad's words are so bad because you agree with them?
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, they are talking about the regime, not the people. And again, I hope they disappear from the pages of time as well. I certainly wish no one ill, in fact, that is why I hope they disappear.
I would like to hear how you think this "regime" can "vanish from the pages of time" without bloodshed?
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| Edited by - Mycroft on 03/28/2007 21:59:06 |
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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2007 : 22:58:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
....
And what, exactly, makes FAIR more accurate than The Guardian?
The answer to this can be found simply by looking at the links.
One of the first things I did was to look at FAIR's link. This is what I found:
FAIR, the national media watch group, has been offering well-documented criticism of media bias and censorship since 1986. We work to invigorate the First Amendment by advocating for greater diversity in the press and by scrutinizing media practices that marginalize public interest, minority and dissenting viewpoints. As an anti-censorship organization, we expose neglected news stories and defend working journalists when they are muzzled. As a progressive group, FAIR believes that structural reform is ultimately needed to break up the dominant media conglomerates, establish independent public broadcasting and promote strong non-profit sources of information.
Uniquely, FAIR works with both activists and journalists. We maintain a regular dialogue with reporters at news outlets across the country, providing constructive critiques when called for and applauding exceptional, hard-hitting journalism. We also encourage the public to contact media with their concerns, to become media activists rather than passive consumers of news.
Emphasis mine.
FAIR is an advocacy group.
Which is fine. The world needs advocacy groups. It's just that you might get the wrong impression if you confuse them with a neutral organization that's just interested in monitoring the media for bias. That's not what they are. The only “bias” they're interested in is whatever helps them push their own ideals.
It's kinda like when you were a kid and you saw the commercial for the sugary cereal and the announcer said something like, ”Super Sugar Bombs can be part of a nutritious breakfast!” You have to think about it for a moment to realize they didn't say it was nutritious, only that it could be part of a nutritious breakfast. Like if you had about 6 cereal pieces with a bowl of fruit, a piece of dry wheat toast and a glass of orange juice. That would be a nutritious breakfast, and Super Sugar Bombs were a part of it, but a bowl of them on their own wouldn't be healthy at all.
In the same way, FAIR monitors the media for bias. Not all media bias, because a lot of that bias would actually be against their “progressive” viewpoint if they brought it up, so they only expose some bias.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 03:47:12 [Permalink]
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| Of course they're biased. Everyone is biased. The New York Times is a capitalist venture, so it is biased. They just don't tell you that they are. Fair does. Biased does not equal wrong. They are very reliable. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2007 : 05:04:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
"Vanish from the face of time" is quite a bit stronger as a statement then "hoping an oppressive regime would end".
Again, they are talking about the regime, not the people. And again, I hope they disappear from the pages of time as well. I certainly wish no one ill, in fact, that is why I hope they disappear.
It is talking about the people. If you read the speech, it is perfectly clear from what Ahmedinejad means is a removal of all of Israel and replacing it with Palestine again. He is not talking about reconciliation between the two groups, Iraelians and Palestinians. He is not talking about searching for a way to end the conflict in which both parties can be at least partially happy. He specifically states that there can be no compromise. The state needs to be "Palestiian". How you can read that and pretend that this is not an inflammatory statement against the Israelian people who live there now is beyond me. It is painfully clear from the speach what position he wants them to have if he gets his way. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Iranian Manhattan Project speeds along
