|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 06:27:58 [Permalink]
|
Kil wrote: quote:
Hey Marf, go easy on Kenneth Miller. He is one of my hero's.
I hope I didn't imply anything critical of Kenneth Miller. Here, for the record, from what little I now know of him, he seems like a good mainstream scientist and I truly appreciate his side efforts of criticizing Intelligent Design. I think it is sad that some creationists interpret Miller's public criticism of ID as evidence that evolution is legitimately controversial among scientists. I think a lot of scientists avoid even responding to ID or creationism because they fear it being misconstrued in just that way. Part of me agrees with the scientists who don't bother 'cause the fight ain't worth it, and part of me support Miller's more head-on approach to countering ID.
I was just trying to point out to Smooke that he's a far cry from the be-all, end-all of evolutionary scientists, and make fun of the fact that he's the only scientist Smoke brought up. He brought up Miller as if countering something I wrote, but I never brought up Miller. I did, however, bring up nobel prize winning geneticist Mueller when I wrote: quote:
Geneticist H. J. Muller predicted irreducible complexity at Behe's biochemical scale in terms of evolution in the early part of the 20th century.
Maybe poor Smoke got confused. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 03/06/2007 06:30:32 |
 |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 06:30:05 [Permalink]
|
filthy wrote: quote:
Great drawing, Marf! I haven't thought of Tiktaalik roseae in quite some time.
Just so no one gets confused (since I'm an artist and I do relief print too) that image was by the artist Ray Troll. You can get the T-shirt exclusively from evolvefish.com here: http://evolvefish.com/fish/darwinday.html |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2007 : 07:33:48 [Permalink]
|
Thanks, Marf. I'll check it out!
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 08:30:58 [Permalink]
|
Ok, so this Kenny Millah is really Kenneth Miller?
In retrospect, that makes sense. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 03/06/2007 : 09:23:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
I hope I didn't imply anything critical of Kenneth Miller. Here, for the record, from what little I now know of him, he seems like a good mainstream scientist and I truly appreciate his side efforts of criticizing Intelligent Design. I think it is sad that some creationists interpret Miller's public criticism of ID as evidence that evolution is legitimately controversial among scientists. I think a lot of scientists avoid even responding to ID or creationism because they fear it being misconstrued in just that way. Part of me agrees with the scientists who don't bother 'cause the fight ain't worth it, and part of me support Miller's more head-on approach to countering ID.
While we are on the subject of Kenneth Miller, however briefly, it is important to point out what a potent voice he is in the debate (that should not be a debate.) As a writer of four biology textbooks for high school science classes, he has been dragged, willingly or not, into the heart of the debate on what should be taught about evolution and what is science.
Also, as a Christian, he is in the unique position of presenting science to a Christian audience. He has written extensively on the perceived conflict between faith and science and how it doesn't have to be an either or thing. He argues against this false dichotomy (and that is exactly what it is) and how it only serves to diminish God by force fitting him into a tiny box for the comfort of many Christians who's rejection of scientific knowledge on the flimsiest of grounds only serves to demonstrate the weakness of their own personal faith.
So, many biblical literalists view Miller with disdain, which is not surprising. As John Schroeder, a writer of creationist books for children said to me about Miller; “He and I do not serve the same God.”
Oh the irony. If a God there be, Schroeder is correct. Miller serves a much bigger God... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 09:59:53 [Permalink]
|
Kil wrote: quote:
So, many biblical literalists view Miller with disdain, which is not surprising.
To be treated with such disdain by your enemies is a good thing - it means that what you are doing is effective. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 13:04:27 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
To be treated with such disdain by your enemies is a good thing - it means that what you are doing is effective.
And the fundamentalists are taught that if you're persecuted, it means you are blessed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2007 : 15:02:00 [Permalink]
|
At least Mozina followed up on his arguments regularly.  |
|
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 09:09:46 [Permalink]
|
Cune wrote: quote:
At least Mozina followed up on his arguments regularly.
I think he'll probably be back, but given his response to me which was thin on evidence and reasoning and thick with condescension, I doubt this guy has all that much to say. Shame... I was hoping for a bigger challenge from him. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2007 : 09:26:48 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Cune wrote: quote:
At least Mozina followed up on his arguments regularly.
I think he'll probably be back, but given his response to me which was thin on evidence and reasoning and thick with condescension, I doubt this guy has all that much to say. Shame... I was hoping for a bigger challenge from him.
Well his site is full of lengthy articles that actually have some substance. And usually you don't go looking for trouble unless you want to stick around. Yes, there are internet trolls, but they're usually really obnoxious and so worse than smoke. Who knows? |
|
|
|
Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 08:01:37 [Permalink]
|
Sorry but I took genuine offense to the dig at pro wrestling whoever made it, since I have been a big fan for many years. I garuantee you 95% of the audience know damn well its predetermined and faked these days. Even in the old days of the 70s and 80s I think it was mainly children who thought it was all real, but the cat was let out the back officially in the early 90s when the WWF changed from being a sports company to beeing an entertainment company to avoid steroid allegations in the courts.
Hell they even show you how they do it these days on WWE's reality TV show 'Tough Enough' where people are trained how to give, take and sell the moves correctly and the winner gets a WWE contract. That show used to actually get higher ratings than the weekly show WWE RAW. Mainly because it let many people know that wrestling was not easy and was very painful and much hard work.
Even after publically admitting the fact they are not a real sport, the WWF achieved its most successful period ever in the late 90s, with wrestlers appearing in the mainstream media and giving candid interviews.
If you wonder why people could possibly enjoy something that isn't 'real' probably the same reason why people like soap operas and action movies.
The difference is that even now after the cat has been let out of the bag many, many times the most hardcore wrestling fan doesn't blindy believe its all still real. Indeed true 'hardcore' fans will have endless debates on who can 'sell' moves the best (make them look genuinely painful' or who can work the crowd the best etc.
Sorry for rant its just that having myself compared to a theist struck a nerve there.
yes I still watch wrestling, you can laugh now if you want. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
|
|
|
Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2007 : 08:27:57 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
Sorry but I took genuine offense to the dig at pro wrestling whoever made it, since I have been a big fan for many years. I garuantee you 95% of the audience know damn well its predetermined and faked these days. Even in the old days of the 70s and 80s I think it was mainly children who thought it was all real, but the cat was let out the back officially in the early 90s when the WWF changed from being a sports company to beeing an entertainment company to avoid steroid allegations in the courts.
Hell they even show you how they do it these days on WWE's reality TV show 'Tough Enough' where people are trained how to give, take and sell the moves correctly and the winner gets a WWE contract. That show used to actually get higher ratings than the weekly show WWE RAW. Mainly because it let many people know that wrestling was not easy and was very painful and much hard work.
Even after publically admitting the fact they are not a real sport, the WWF achieved its most successful period ever in the late 90s, with wrestlers appearing in the mainstream media and giving candid interviews.
If you wonder why people could possibly enjoy something that isn't 'real' probably the same reason why people like soap operas and action movies.
The difference is that even now after the cat has been let out of the bag many, many times the most hardcore wrestling fan doesn't blindy believe its all still real. Indeed true 'hardcore' fans will have endless debates on who can 'sell' moves the best (make them look genuinely painful' or who can work the crowd the best etc.
Sorry for rant its just that having myself compared to a theist struck a nerve there.
yes I still watch wrestling, you can laugh now if you want.
I agree with you, Veg, though my interest in the 'sport' has waned of late. I was particularly distressed with how the leadership at WCW ran their product into the ground trying to one-up the WWFE in absurd plots and gimmicks. Once it essentially became a monopoly, I've found the whole thing to be a bit less interesting and have largely tuned out.
That said, no one who watches the thing thinks it's 'real' in the sense the the results of the 'contests' aren't determined beforehand. [/off-topic wrestling discussion] |
|
|
|
moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 11:01:43 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
As John Schroeder, a writer of creationist books for children said to me about Miller; “He and I do not serve the same God.”
Oh the irony. If a God there be, Schroeder is correct. Miller serves a much bigger God...
More than one God? Seems possible that we may be creating them.  |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2007 : 11:24:26 [Permalink]
|
| As for "Pro" wrestling, I couldnt believe my eyes when I turn on the tele about ten years ago and saw a 3 man tag team event, with three teams. Only catch? One team was made up as sterotypical hispanic gang members, one was black power stereotypes and one was white biker stereotypes. A mini race war in the ring, I was disgusted beyond belief. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2007 : 03:11:52 [Permalink]
|
"pro" wrestling is hilarious, I love it 
And, for the record, there are people out there who really believe it is 100% real (as in not generally scripted, outcomes predetermined, and that any human can remain conscious after having a 350lb man jump down 5 feet and plant his elbow in your face). I know atleast one.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
 |
|
You may be a fundamentalist atheist if...
