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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:49:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
...People are clutching at straws with europa. It's like a man dying in the desert looking for water, Europa is a mirage. I hope my weak metaphor really hammers my point home. |
Are you sure that your own belief in the Bible does not serve as your own "straw" to grasp or your own "water...in [a] desert" of blind dogmatic certainty? In other words, are you open to the notion that you could be wrong as much as many of us accept the notion that good scientific theories are falsifiable?
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 12:36:41 [Permalink]
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Interestingly, a report called The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems was recently released by the National Academies of Science. And despite conflicting abiogenesis models and opinions regarding probabilities, the authors state (on page 85):...the likelihood of encountering some form of life in subsurface Mars and sub-ice Europa appears high. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 12:37:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
People are clutching at straws with europa. It's like a man dying in the desert looking for water, Europa is a mirage. I hope my weak metaphor really hammers my point home.
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Why?
As somebody said before, if there's a mechanism, and this mechanism works, and the conditions for the mechanism to work are there, it will work, simple like that. Scientists that know better than I do seem to think there's a possibility the elements necessary to make life happen are there. Only because it's counter-intuitive to you doesn't mean it's not possible. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 07/16/2007 16:35:48 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 14:55:24 [Permalink]
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| I still think you are missing the posts on the seeding of life on Europa by rocks from earth, abiogenesis is not the only option. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 14:56:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I still think you are missing the posts on the seeding of life on Europa by rocks from earth, abiogenesis is not the only option.
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What if life on Earth was seeded by rocks from Europa? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 17:02:17 [Permalink]
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| I'm not missing the posts on panspermia, I'm simply ignoring them. My original topic was on whether life could arise on Europa not whether it could survive there. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 23:48:13 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
| My original topic was on whether life could arise on Europa not whether it could survive there. |
The answer to that question will only be discovered when we go and look.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 00:31:30 [Permalink]
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| Obviously. The same could be said for many places. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 01:34:47 [Permalink]
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Looking carefully and not finding life on Mars or Europa would be just as important a discovery, though far less exciting, as finding it there. We might at least rule out some planetary environments as being suitable for the beginnings of life, and better hone our abilities to search for it elsewhere.
Also (and you may want to seriously consider this, OFFC) not finding life there might make some theists very happy. Since, apparently based entirely on an argument from incredulity, you think no life will be found, maybe you should be supporting these missions of discovery. Then, also, if life is found, you can go to Plan B, stop "ignoring" panspermia and claim that Martian or Europan life sprang from God's earthly creation. I see plenty of gaps for God to hide in, whatever is discovered.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/17/2007 05:22:42 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 03:17:23 [Permalink]
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I'm not exactly sure what OFFC's point here is... he said, way back in the OP:
| Is it not logical though to assume that life on Earth arose from the most ideal conditions, then adapted to the harsher environments. |
Because this sentence is devoid of any actual meaning and is completely divorced from any facts.
No one has ever said that "life arose on earth from the most ideal conditions". Well, no one scientifically credible at any rate.
The only "ideal" condition for any life form is the one that it thrives in. We know that almost all life on earth requires some liquid water, so we look for places off earth that have liquid water.
No one would say with absolute certainty that life exists anywhere else in the universe, but there are several reasons to give it a high probability.
| The trouble is Europa is not warm. It may have liquid water, however h2o alone will not spark a biogenesis. People are clutching at straws with europa. |
Warm enough for liquid water, and the planet is caught in a powerful gravity well, which means it is going to be tectonically active, which explains the presence of liquid water so far from the sun, which means that some regions of Europa down under the ice are going to have water temperatures well above the minimum for liquid water...
No one has ever said (again, no one scientifically credible) that water alone is all abiogenesis needs.
And really, it seems to me that it is you who are desperately wanting there to be no life off earth.
Just take a look at the night sky, look at the pictures of the Hubble ultra deep field view, go over to Galaxy Zoo and see pics of millions of galaxies... combine that with an understanding of biology and chemistry, and it is pure arrogance to assume this little spec of a planet is the only place in the universe where life exists.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 05:50:13 [Permalink]
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I have pondered the question about life on other planets in our solar system. I would have expected to find life or at least some sort of evidence that life existed once on Mars. We have not found any as of yet and of course we have only scratched the surface (literally). It is possible that there is no life on Mars and never was, it is also possible that there is no life elsewhere in the universe. We cannot say. It is a strange feeling to me to think that we could be truly alone in the univese...
Our mere existence says Nothing about the abundance or likely hood of life elsewhere in the universe. But that being said there are several things that make the likelyhood of life existing outside of earth likely:
1. Life arose VERY early in Earths history. It appears that when the earth cooled sufficiently for life to exisist it appeared.
2. There are 200 billion stars in the milky way alone (taking a low estimate). About 1/2 of the stars are binaries (as I recall), so that would give us 150 billion opportunites for life to arise.
These two facts alone would indicate that life outside of earth is highly probable.
By the way I tend to agree with you, Christ on Fire that life probably arose in ideal conditions (whaterver they are!) and then adapted to more harsh enviroments. Which in my opinion would make life on Europa less likely. Of course this is just my uneducated, unevidenced opinion.
Edited to add - I did not purposely bastardize On fire for Christ's name, but I will leave it as is cause it cracks me up.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 07/17/2007 05:55:37 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 08:14:41 [Permalink]
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furshur concluded:| Edited to add - I did not purposely bastardize On fire for Christ's name, but I will leave it as is cause it cracks me up. |
I imagine a missing line from the description of the Crucifixion: "And then the Roman soldiers brought up to Golgotha a jerry-can of kerosene, and torches."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/17/2007 08:17:52 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 09:42:48 [Permalink]
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| Warm enough for liquid water, and the planet is caught in a powerful gravity well, which means it is going to be tectonically active, which explains the presence of liquid water so far from the sun, which means that some regions of Europa down under the ice are going to have water temperatures well above the minimum for liquid water... |
Right so warmth and water are the basis for this assumption? I should be getting biogenesis in my bathtub by this extremely dumbed down explanation. Is there any evidence at all for the molecules existing, in the concentrations necessary to make biogenesis at all probable?
| Just take a look at the night sky, look at the pictures of the Hubble ultra deep field view, go over to Galaxy Zoo and see pics of millions of galaxies... combine that with an understanding of biology and chemistry, and it is pure arrogance to assume this little spec of a planet is the only place in the universe where life exists. |
What's this got to do with Europa? If it wasn't for my username you wouldn't have even said this.
Maybe YOU need to look at those pictures and realise that our tiny spec of a solar system already has one planet teeming with life as unlikely as it is, and realise that it is pure arrogance to assume it's also going to pop up in our backyard.
People want life to be on europa because it's conceivable we can go there, forget looking for planets similar to Earth, thats centuries away, we want results and we want them yesterday! They will ignore the lack of evidence and improbability and NASA will fuel this hype because public curiosity for them means dollars.
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/17/2007 09:48:10 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 10:19:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
They will ignore the lack of evidence and improbability and NASA will fuel this hype because public curiosity for them means dollars.
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Again, how are you arriving at the conclusion that life on Europa is "improbable?"
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 11:33:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Right so warmth and water are the basis for this assumption?
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Pretty much yes. Given what we know life is more likely to exist if the conditions include liquid water than if they don't.
| I should be getting biogenesis in my bathtub by this extremely dumbed down explanation. |
Well hopefully you're just engaging in hyperbole here because this is pretty ignorant if you mean it literally.
I suppose that your point must be that it doesn't matter how favorable conditions might be to established life forms if conditions are not and never have been favorable to biogenesis. The trouble is that we don't really know enough about how biogenesis occurs to say one way or the other.
If biogenesis events are still occurring on earth it stands to reason that they would be both difficult to recognize and short lived. In that vein how can you be sure that biogenesis events never occur in bathtubs?
Is life more likely to exist in your bathtub or in a lava flow? Is life more likely to exist on Europa or Io? If you were searching for life where would you look first?
| Is there any evidence at all for the molecules existing, in the concentrations necessary to make biogenesis at all probable? |
I don't know of anything definitive. We don't know enough about biogenesis or the conditions on Europa to meaningfully answer this question yet. |
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Life on Mars/Europa (elsewhere in solar system)
