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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2007 : 12:25:20 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
| Right so warmth and water are the basis for this assumption? I should be getting biogenesis in my bathtub by this extremely dumbed down explanation. |
Only if you are dumb enough to think that abiogenesis would occur in the short time it takes for you to take a bath.... and only if you have a planetary surface at the bottom of your bathtub.
Why are you so desperate for there to be no life on other planets?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 12:27:10 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
They will ignore the lack of evidence and improbability and NASA will fuel this hype because public curiosity for them means dollars.
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Typical fundie stupidity. Scientific research is all just a scam to get money from the government.
Whatever.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 20:35:57 [Permalink]
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A brief aside to OFFC: Are you a theistic evolutionist? If so, based upon the impression your handle gave me, I may have maligned you a bit earlier, and so conditionally apologize.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/17/2007 20:36:15 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 20:40:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
OFFC said:
They will ignore the lack of evidence and improbability and NASA will fuel this hype because public curiosity for them means dollars.
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Typical fundie stupidity. Scientific research is all just a scam to get money from the government.
Whatever.
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Just like Da Gnome's objection to Egyptian archaeology.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/17/2007 20:41:15 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 23:35:00 [Permalink]
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| Only if you are dumb enough to think that abiogenesis would occur in the short time it takes for you to take a bath.... and only if you have a planetary surface at the bottom of your bathtub. |
As you are clearly too stupid to realize I was mocking you let me explain; I made the bathtub comment because it contained both pre-requisites for abiogenesis you listed. Since water and warmth were the entire basis for your 'scientific prediction' on the probability of europan life then it is indeed the same as my bathtub, and from thence my comment arose.
However now you have added time and a 'planetary surface' or Rock I guess you could say (equally non specific). Should I respond now or will you tease me with more evidence one post at a time?
What the hell.
We can only base our predictions of life forming on Europa based on theories of how it began on Earth. Life requires chemical energy from oxygen. Does europa have enough oxygen? Does it have the chemicals required to form RNA in the concentrations and conditions necessary?
And quit it with the sweeping generalizations based on a single comment, I don't think NASA are out to scam anyone. But it wouldn't be the first time a costly mission would be launched for very little empirical gain. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/17/2007 23:57:38 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 00:24:58 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
| Life requires chemical energy from oxygen. |
Wrong. So wrong that it illustrates the vast depth of your ignorance.
The oldest life on earth (and still around today, cyanobacteria and archaea), and many many moderns species do not use oxygen.
And no species uses "chemical energy from oxygen". Some species require oxygen for cellular respiration, but the chemical energy is derived from other molecules (glucose, for example).
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 00:32:21 [Permalink]
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ok let me be more specific.
Chemical energy derived either from sunlight by means of photosynthesis or from the oxygen that is a byproduct. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 01:42:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
ok let me be more specific.
Chemical energy derived either from sunlight by means of photosynthesis or from the oxygen that is a byproduct.
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Nope, that also seems to be wrong. Some existing extremophiles such as thermophilic, acidophilic archaea, derive their energy purely from chemical reactions, such as "lithotrophs that oxidize sulfur to sulfuric acid as an energy source, thus requiring the microorganism to be adapted to very low pH (i.e. it is an acidophile as well as thermophile)." No sunlight need apply. These very well could be similar to the first lifeforms on earth.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/18/2007 02:49:04 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 02:29:22 [Permalink]
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... there are even bacteria that derive their energy from radioactive compounds found miles beneath the surface.
Read and enjoy. This is a particularly amazing discovery.
Chemosynthetic bacteria, like those found at deep sea hydrothermal vents (like we suspect exist on Europa) derive their energy entirely from some sulfides.... and they are the base of the food chain for these isolated systems that recieve no sunlight. These places are teeming with life that doesn't require oxygen or sunlight.
Its a fascinating world.
There is good reason to think that there may be life under the ice of Europa.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2007 : 03:38:45 [Permalink]
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I am of the opinion that if the proper conditions exist, life will form. The biggest questions concern those conditions, and I think that they might not be as narrow as many people believe.
Life could well be ubiquitous throughout the universe.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2007 : 03:49:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I am of the opinion that if the proper conditions exist, life will form. The biggest questions concern those conditions, and I think that they might not be as narrow as many people believe.
Life could well be ubiquitous throughout the universe.
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That would be my layman's guess, as well. All this recent data about earthly extremophiles seems to greatly expand the probability that, if given half a chance, life will spring up.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 13:32:25 [Permalink]
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But chemosynthesis does require oxygen. Oxygen is a necessary part of the reaction. Organisms which produce sustanence via chemosynthesis rely on oxygen produced by photosynthesis.
I would argue that the deep hot hypothesis is the only abiogenesis model one which could work on europa, and EVEN IF all the ingredients were in place we do not actually know if this model works.
Sounds liek a bad bet to me. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 13:59:55 [Permalink]
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Is Oxygen required?
| In the rare sites at which hydrogen molecules (H2) are available, the energy available from the reaction between CO2 and H2 (leading to production of methane, CH4) can be large enough to drive the production of biomass. |
Deep Ocean Life Where Oxygen is Scarce
Thus, Thioploca stores the nitrate it needs for oxidizing hydrogen sulfide. The nitrate takes the place of the oxygen used by most organisms, and the vacuole serves as a lung. Presumably, the ability to store nitrate gives Thioploca a distinct advantage over bacteria that must have simultaneous access to an oxidant and a reduced compound.
Hydrogen sulfide, the reduced compound used by Thioploca, is produced by sedimentary bacteria that reduce sulfate. In some locations, filaments of the sulfate-reducing Desulfonema ornament the sheath of Thioploca, creating an efficient recycling system. A more intimate arrangement has evolved in the gutless oligochaete Olavius algarvensis, which shelters two bacterial species in its cells. One bacterium produces sulfide, and the other oxidizes this product. Even in sediments completely devoid of oxygen, hydrogen sulfide is consumed rapidly. Thus, bacteria in anoxic sediments reduce sulfate to hydrogen sulfide. Whereas some sulfur-oxidizing bacteria require oxygen to oxidize hydrogen sulfide, others use nitrate, releasing energy that can be used for growth. |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 08/03/2007 14:02:19 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 14:06:38 [Permalink]
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To part 2, this is a symbiotic relationship, hardly a good place to look for abiogenesis
For part one where H2 is required, that is interesting, I've not heard of that before. Not ready to abandon my stance based on this one thing though. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 20:03:07 [Permalink]
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OFFC said:
Organisms which produce sustanence via chemosynthesis rely on oxygen produced by photosynthesis.
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Ummm no.
The first organisms on planet earth did not require oxygen, indeed it was a scarce molecule. They produced it as a byproduct of their metabolism. Poisonous waste.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Life on Mars/Europa (elsewhere in solar system)
