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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2007 : 04:48:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
The only major thing in the realm of religion which is as of yet (possibly forever) unexplainable by science is the creation of the universe itself.
Great! Please explain (explain, not describe) emergence. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 05:16:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheistquote:
Originally posted by Vegeta
The only major thing in the realm of religion which is as of yet (possibly forever) unexplainable by science is the creation of the universe itself.
Great! Please explain (explain, not describe) emergence.
Please show where Vegeta claims to be able to explain everything that is explainable by science!
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 05:30:31 [Permalink]
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| I think agnostic atheism does have to be the default position for a skeptic. Having said that I think that strong atheism, as in "there is definitly no god" is just as irrational as simple theism. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2007 : 06:36:55 [Permalink]
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Let's put it this way:
As no gods have ever manifested themselves in any sort of a physical way beyond anecdote, and none have ever assisted any of their followers in any way that cannot be explained by natural occurrence, blind chance, or outright fraud, then for all practical purposes, gods do not exist.
Occham's Razor says that unless and until concrete evidence is produced, I got to agree with da filth. There ain't no gods.
However, should such evidence come forth, then the gods would no longer be supernatural, would they? And then where would churches be? Heh, they would all be converted into bingo parlors and Jerry Falwell could exercise his considerable oratorical skills calling numbers, for without the Ultimate Mystery, the supernatural, services would be pointless and moot.
Thus, the atheist denys God's existance, yet leaves a little open in the event, unlikely as it might be, the cosmos actually produces some sort of god.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 06:39:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
I think agnostic atheism does have to be the default position for a skeptic. Having said that I think that strong atheism, as in "there is definitly no god" is just as irrational as simple theism.
There is definitely no Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Apollo.....
Next question? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:18:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Let's put it this way:
As no gods have ever manifested themselves in any sort of a physical way beyond anecdote, and none have ever assisted any of their followers in any way that cannot be explained by natural occurrence, blind chance, or outright fraud, then for all practical purposes, gods do not exist.
I don't think you can say that no gods have ever manifested themselves in any physical way. All you can say is that you are not privy to any evidence that contradicts the default assumption that there are no gods.
quote:
Occham's Razor says that unless and until concrete evidence is produced, I got to agree with da filth. There ain't no gods.
Or, subtle distinction here, one could simply lack a god belief altogether.
quote:
However, should such evidence come forth, then the gods would no longer be supernatural, would they? And then where would churches be? Heh, they would all be converted into bingo parlors and Jerry Falwell could exercise his considerable oratorical skills calling numbers, for without the Ultimate Mystery, the supernatural, services would be pointless and moot.
Now that's just wishful thinking. 
quote:
Thus, the atheist denys God's existance, yet leaves a little open in the event, unlikely as it might be, the cosmos actually produces some sort of god.
I suppose in essense we agree but I think that 'strong atheism' is more of a reaction to widespread theism than it is a logically held belief. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:20:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
There is definitely no Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Apollo.....
Next question?
Er... what exactly are you getting at? |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 07:41:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Next question?
Er... what exactly are you getting at?
Can you not say that you're certain that the tribal war god Jehovah does not exist? Are you not certain that people delude themselves with god(s)?
Is it then not reasonable to say that you're as sure that no gods exist as you are about anything else? Are you as sure that gravity exists as you are that Zeus does not exist?
Is there some tiny possibility that there is no gravity and that Zeus exists? Not enough to seriously consider.
Does one have to technically leave open the possibility that gravity does not exist or that Zeus does? I suppose, if one is to be open to new information. I'm not sure that that equates to being forced to say "I don't know" if there is gravity or "I don't know" if Zeus exists. Does it? Zeus doesn't exist. Gravity does. Next question? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/30/2007 07:42:00 |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 08:13:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Can you not say that you're certain that the tribal war god Jehovah does not exist? Are you not certain that people delude themselves with god(s)?
Yes I am certain, to the degree that I can be certain about anything, that Jehovah does not exist.
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Is it then not reasonable to say that you're as sure that no gods exist as you are about anything else?
No, that does not follow. It's like attempting to disprove the existence of intelligent aliens by pointing out that Klingons do not actually exist.
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Are you as sure that gravity exists as you are that Zeus does not exist?
More or less, yes.
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Is there some tiny possibility that there is no gravity and that Zeus exists? Not enough to seriously consider.
Agreed.
quote:
Does one have to technically leave open the possibility that gravity does not exist or that Zeus does? I suppose, if one is to be open to new information. I'm not sure that that equates to being forced to say "I don't know" if there is gravity or "I don't know" if Zeus exists. Does it? Zeus doesn't exist. Gravity does. Next question?
Right but while the existence of Zeus would prove that gods do exist the converse is not true. The idea of god is not even all that well defined. I don't believe it is possible to meaningfully assign any probability to god's existence. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 08:35:55 [Permalink]
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Very quickly on this subject, because I don't have much time. The thing is, I know theists and deists who are great skeptics. One is my friend Jim. Another is Hal Bidlack of the JREF who was the MC at TAM this year and delivered a great talk last year at TAM. I could name others.
Call it a blind spot. Call it what you will, I still have a great deal respect for these guys.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 09:02:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Right but while the existence of Zeus would prove that gods do exist the converse is not true. The idea of god is not even all that well defined. I don't believe it is possible to meaningfully assign any probability to god's existence.
Sure. But from there it's a short leap to say that I know that people make up gods. I know the gods that they've made up do not exist, and I see no reason to entertain the possibility that there are more of the same. Might there be some kind of god that exists? But what reason would you have to make up such a thing for me to deny or approve? Again, I don't take the time to call myself an agnostic when it comes to flying spaghetti monsters or teacups on Saturn, so why bother saying I'm an agnostic about gods in any way?
The universe is just not made in a way for me to consider seriously that gravity does not exist, or that gods do exist. If it's not a serious consideration, why bother to use a word like agnostic about it? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 09:04:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Very quickly on this subject, because I don't have much time. The thing is, I know theists and deists who are great skeptics. One is my friend Jim. Another is Hal Bidlack of the JREF who was the MC at TAM this year and delivered a great talk last year at TAM. I could name others.
Call it a blind spot. Call it what you will, I still have a great deal respect for these guys.
Sure. Religious people are often wonderful people, and very skeptical about many things. But, can we honestly say that they're skeptical about the existence of gods in the same way they're skeptical about consumer fraud or health fraud? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 10:44:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure. But from there it's a short leap to say that I know that people make up gods.
Well that's not a leap at all it's a sure thing.
quote:
I know the gods that they've made up do not exist, and I see no reason to entertain the possibility that there are more of the same.
Certainly and that's pretty much the position of an agnostic atheist.
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Might there be some kind of god that exists?
Maybe. I think the chance of that depends entirely on how broadly or narrowly you define god as a category. What are the requirements a being would need to fulfill in order to be considered a god in your estimation?
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But what reason would you have to make up such a thing for me to deny or approve?
None really, other than mere speculation.
quote:
Again, I don't take the time to call myself an agnostic when it comes to flying spaghetti monsters or teacups on Saturn, so why bother saying I'm an agnostic about gods in any way?
Whether you use the term agnostic or not you come across as an agnostic atheist to me.quote:
The universe is just not made in a way for me to consider seriously that gravity does not exist, or that gods do exist. If it's not a serious consideration, why bother to use a word like agnostic about it?
Well first of all god is so poorly defined that saying god exists or not is rather meaningless. Do you have a specific definition of god in mind?
As for why to use the word 'agnostic' I've just used it to distinguish between different flavors of atheism as in 'agnostic atheism' or 'strong atheism' and so on. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 10:44:46 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, no theist has ever passed 7.2 on the Skeptometer! |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2007 : 12:01:55 [Permalink]
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ejd wrote: quote:
For me, skepticism is not accepting something without proof, or at the very minimum a well formulated, sound, logical argument with some science behind it. I say that because the other thread degenerated into a discussion of quantum theory, string theory, and dark matter. (still some interesting reading for those who care to take a look-see).
Based on what I believe it means to be a skeptic (stated above), this skeptic would per force be an atheist.
I don't think it is as simple as this. I would add to your definition of a skeptic that they do not accept something as "fact" or "knowledge" or something else similar, without proof. That doesn't totally exclude religious belief. It only excludes beliefs which are valued above facts supported by evidence. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/31/2007 04:44:45 |
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Does Skepticism Default to Atheism?
