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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
 Posted - 04/11/2007 : 20:43:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
(No Michael, I do not own nor have I read the entirety of Alfven's works.)
Well then John, it's a bit like having two creationists agreeing that Darwin claimed we all evolved from apes. You may "interpret" it that way if you like, but if you refuse to read Darwin's work, it's pretty ridiculous to expect me to care what you think about Darwin.
You might find some "legaleese" way of looking at Alfven's two paragraphs, and you might misinterpret his work out of context because you never read the work. You would have to read all the material to really grasp what he's talking about. You two refuse to do that.
There is a whole aspect of MHD theory related to electron current and how it effects plasma. If you guys wish to remain ignorant of it, I can't stop you, but I sure won't put much value in your opinions about Alfven's work.
I like you a lot John, but come on. If you two refuse to educate yourself here a bit, I can't really help you. MHD theory isn't just about magnetic fields, and Alfven wrote several books on the topic of current flow of how it passes through plasma. I suggest you two either buy the books, or quit pretending to know what he meant. His statements were quite clear. The energy does not come from "magnetic reconnection", and it can never come from magnetic reconnection. It is the current that is running through the plasma that heats it to millions of degrees inside twisting columns of plasma.
Even a toy plasma ball can begin to emit xrays if the voltage and amperage is cranked up high enough. There is nothing "mysterious" about what's heating the plasma columns. It's called electricity. |
| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/11/2007 20:52:00 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 20:46:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I'm confused. You say it's "a well accepted tenent of plasma cosmology" but also that "standard theorists tend to be in complete denial" about most of it. I'm sure I'm just not understanding something.
Most standard theorists are not plasma cosmologists. They pretty much ignore the latter half of Alfven's MHD theories about current flow and plasma formations that are dependent on current flow.
quote:
Also, how is the universe made up of plasma threads?
The plasma between the suns, and between the galaxies, carries current through the universe. Those currents create magnetic fields. The strength of the current flow is directly related to the strength of the magnetic field. That is true in coronal loops as well. The strength of the magnetic field around the loops is directly related to the amount of current that traverses the loop. The currents and the magnetic field end up parallel to one another as the twisting column traverses the solar atmosphere.
When the current stops flowing through the loop, then the column dissipates. If the material inside the column is heavier than the atmosphere it falls to back toward the photosphere. There's nothing "impossible" about it. |
| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/11/2007 20:50:16 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:14:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
The plasma between the suns, and between the galaxies, carries current through the universe.
What plasma between the suns and galaxies?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:28:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Well then John, it's a bit like having two creationists agreeing that Darwin claimed we all evolved from apes.
No, it wouldn't be at all like that. See, for that analogy to work, Michael, you would actually have to share the majority scientific opinion. Instead, you are the one claiming all currently-working scientists have got it wrong, so it's more like you're the one claiming that Darwin said something which no one attributes to him.
And anyway, like Alfven, the science has moved well beyond Darwin's contributions to the theory, so it wouldn't matter even if he had said we evolved from apes. Since science is not a religion, no one treats the ideas of scientists, even great scientists, as holy gospel.
quote:
You might find some "legaleese" way of looking at Alfven's two paragraphs, and you might misinterpret his work out of context because you never read the work. You would have to read all the material to really grasp what he's talking about. You two refuse to do that.
Michael, you're an idiot if you really think anyone needs to read everything Alfven ever wrote to discover what he *really* thought about a single subject. You're an even bigger idiot if you think Alfven's opinions matter when it comes to current science unknown in his lifetime.
This latest ruse of pretending to possess secret knowledge of Alfven's intentions is beyond tiresome. You haven't shown the least bit of comprehension concerning several topics now, such as dark matter or Big Bang theory. The odds that you and you alone have correctly understood Alfven--or that all working scientists reject his irrefutable ideas for no good reason--is less than zero.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:29:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
The plasma between the suns, and between the galaxies, carries current through the universe.
What plasma between the suns and galaxies?
What plasma between the suns and the galaxies? Are you serious? |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:37:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
What plasma between the suns and the galaxies? Are you serious?
Yes, what plasma? Do you mean the solar wind?
Edited to add: Since Michael cannot answer simple questions without demonstrating what an ass he is, I managed to discover that he's probably talking about the interplanetary medium.
quote:
The interplanetary medium is the material which fills the solar system and through which all the larger solar system bodies such as planets, asteroids and comets move. The interplanetary medium includes interplanetary dust, cosmic rays and hot plasma from the solar wind. The temperature of the interplanetary medium is approximately 100,000 K, and its density is very low at about 5 particles per cubic centimeter in the vicinity of the Earth; it decreases with increasing distance from the sun, in proportion with the inverse square of the distance.
However, since this medium thins further from the sun, I'm not sure this provides a viable method for transferring a current across galaxies.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/11/2007 21:44:45 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:40:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Well then John, it's a bit like having two creationists agreeing that Darwin claimed we all evolved from apes.
No, it wouldn't be at all like that. See, for that analogy to work, Michael, you would actually have to share the majority scientific opinion. Instead, you are the one claiming all currently-working scientists have got it wrong, so it's more like you're the one claiming that Darwin said something which no one attributes to him.
Of course none of you attribute it to him. None of you have even read his work! I'd be more in the role of trying to explain Darwin's work to the ignorant masses before the mainstream warmed up to the idea.
quote:
And anyway, like Alfven, the science has moved well beyond Darwin's contributions to the theory,
You can't move beyond something you don't understand in the first place. You can't show me any experiment that demonstrates we've "moved on" as it relates to magnetic reconnection.
quote:
Michael, you're an idiot if you really think anyone needs to read everything Alfven ever wrote to discover what he *really* thought about a single subject. You're an even bigger idiot if you think Alfven's opinions matter when it comes to current science unknown in his lifetime.
Likewise you're pretty damn ignorant if you think I believe you guys know anything at all about Alfven or MHD theory. Hell I already know that none of you have ever read his books. None of you can even define what "magnetic reconnection" actually is, and you've never shown that "magnetic reconnection" actually exists. Talk to me again when you can actually physically define what "magnetic reconnection" is at an atomic level, and you can explain how it's different than any other normal plasma behavior related to current flow. That's the one thing you guys can never do with your metaphysical cludged ideas. They're all smoke and mirrors the moment we try to define the physics involved. That's how we know it's metaphysics and not physics.
Define the physics of "magnetic reconnection" at an atomic level and then we'll see who is the idiot.
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| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/11/2007 22:31:43 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:42:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
What plasma between the suns and the galaxies? Are you serious?
Yes, what plasma? Do you mean the solar wind?
That's one type of plasma, sure. What do you figure is on the other side of the sun's magnetic sheath? |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 04:39:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I'm confused. You say it's "a well accepted tenent of plasma cosmology" but also that "standard theorists tend to be in complete denial" about most of it. I'm sure I'm just not understanding something.
Most standard theorists are not plasma cosmologists. They pretty much ignore the latter half of Alfven's MHD theories about current flow and plasma formations that are dependent on current flow.
Interesting. So is plasma cosmology a branch of cosmology, then? I mean, is that something I can focus on in grad school?
Is it the same thing as studying plasma astrophysics? I see that MIT offers several graduate courses covering the topic:quote:
For students interested in space physics, astrophysics, and plasma physics in general. Magnetospheres of rotating magnetized planets, ordinary stars, neutron stars, and black holes. Pulsar models: processes for slowing down, particle acceleration, and radiation emission; accreting plasmas and x-ray stars; stellar winds; heliosphere and solar wind- relevant magnetic field configuration, measured particle distribution in velocity space and induced collective modes; stability of the current sheet and collisionless processes for magnetic reconnection; theory of collisionless shocks; solitons; Ferroaro-Rosenbluth sheet; solar flare models; heating processes of the solar corona; earth's magnetosphere (auroral phenomena and their interpretation, bowshock, magnetotail, trapped particle effects); relationship between gravitational (galactic) plasmas and electromagnetic plasmas. 8.913 deals with heliospheric, 8.914 with extra-heliospheric plasmas.
Indeed, they have a whole center for the study of geo/cosmo plasma physics! Princeton has a whole graduate program in the field! How are these people not talking to the standard theorists? Indeed, who are the standard theorists?? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 04:52:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
The strength of the magnetic field around the loops is directly related to the amount of current that traverses the loop. The currents and the magnetic field end up parallel to one another as the twisting column traverses the solar atmosphere.
Wow, even though the existence of field-aligned currents was deduced first by Birkeland, promoted by Alfven (and others) and has been studied in the lab and in nature for decades, you've managed to get cause and effect almost completely backwards, Michael. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 08:37:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
The strength of the magnetic field around the loops is directly related to the amount of current that traverses the loop. The currents and the magnetic field end up parallel to one another as the twisting column traverses the solar atmosphere.
Wow, even though the existence of field-aligned currents was deduced first by Birkeland, promoted by Alfven (and others) and has been studied in the lab and in nature for decades, you've managed to get cause and effect almost completely backwards, Michael.
Well Dave, you hit the nail on the head as far as the key issue is concerned. It certainly is a "Which came first, the electrical current or the magnetic field" sort of question.
Go back now and watch the "Granddaddy" of all solar eruptions and tell me how that was due to "magnetic reconnection". |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 08:58:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Interesting. So is plasma cosmology a branch of cosmology, then?
Yes. Aflven pretty much started the "movement". Lots of individuals now recognize the key role of electrical current in cosmology. That is not true of every branch of cosmology.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374
quote:
I mean, is that something I can focus on in grad school?
You can certainly focus on Alfven's work in grad school if you like. I don't know how welcome you would be in the astronomy "establishment" at the moment if you start talking about the electrons flowing through the plasma. Astronomers tend to only think in terms of 'magnetic fields' as though they could somehow exist in plasma clouds without current flow. Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but they refuse to recognize that it takes current flow to hold or create magnetic fields in light plasma.
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Is it the same thing as studying plasma astrophysics? I see that MIT offers several graduate courses covering the topic:
I think that someone could probably focus on plasma physics (not necessarily astronomy per se, and focus on Alfven's work as it relates to plasma and current flow in plasma. This way they could formally study plasma behaviors in school if one wanted to. Again however, I doubt that you would be accepted by the mainstream at the moment, but if you're young enough, maybe I will have helped make some inroads by then for you. :)
FYI, we have had no problem getting our ideas and papers published in The Journal of Fusion energy, and Yad Fiz, a nuclear chemical journal. The only community that will not accept the role of electrical current is the astronomy community.
It ultimately comes down to a basic disagreement at a fundamental level. In standard astronomy, they typically accept the role of gravity and magnetism (sort of), but they utterly ignore the electrical component of what's going on.
Alfven took the opposite approach after studying plasma in controlled laboratory settings. He realized the electrical nature of plasma and identified the current carrying properties of it. Today's astronomers only understand the first part of Alfven's work. They erroneously assume as Dave did that there is one side of MHD theory, the non electrical side. Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but Dave and others don't know about it, because none of them have ever read his books. It's really that simple. I suppose ignorance is bliss.
quote:
Indeed, they have a whole center for the study of geo/cosmo plasma physics!
I'd say plasma physics is a good thing. I'd say magnetic reconnection is a myth. Magnetic fields in the absence of current flow could not possibly cause things like we see in the solar atmosphere.
quote:
Princeton has a whole graduate program in the field! How are these people not talking to the standard theorists? Indeed, who are the standard theorists??
The standard theorists tend to be like Dave. They recognize the role of magnetic fields in plasma but they refuse to acknowledge that the only thing that can "hold" or "store" a powerful magnetic field in light thin plasma is an "electrified structure" of some sort. Alfven explains what that structure looks like, why it forms, how it forms and the math behind it all. By and large "astronomers" are utterly ignorant of those math formulas. |
| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/12/2007 09:07:40 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 09:08:09 [Permalink]
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This is what I thought. When you say things like "such-and-such idea is generally accepted by plasma cosmologists" you really just mean "by fringe scholars and independant researchers like me."
The whole rant against the "establishment" seems like some sort of persecution or conspiratorial complex. I somehow doubt that the people at Princeton or MIT are actively surpressing research or information-- especially if said ideas were as patently obvious as you claim!
As my alma mater, they are also working on some of this stuff:quote:
The Plasma Spectroscopy Group is conducting research in the area of atomic processes mainly in high temperature-thermonuclear fusion plasmas and X-ray astrophysics. We develop novel XUV diagnostics to address questions related to particle transport, confinement and MHD activity in both the hot core and the cooler edge of magnetically confined toroidal plasmas. These experiments are conducted at the main fusion research centers in the USA (Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory ) as well as in Europe (ENEA Research Center in Frascati, Italy) and Japan (LHD device at National Institute for Fusion Science, Toki-City).
There's that MHD you talk about. Are they also simply refusing to properly acknowledge Alfven?
I won't pretend to understand what it is you're talking about with "currents" flowing through the universe, but I find it impossible to imagine that the dozens (or more) of PhD's and grad students at just the few universities I've looked at are all completely missing the obvious aspects of the unviverse you're claiming. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 09:27:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Well Dave, you hit the nail on the head as far as the key issue is concerned. It certainly is a "Which came first, the electrical current or the magnetic field" sort of question.
Great! Since we know the answer for Earth's aurorae and for Birkeland's terrela, why don't you demonstrate why it is your opinion that the answer for the Sun is backwards from both of those? Why not give us a detailed description of how an electrical current can cause a parallel magnetic field? (After all, the details of how magnetic fields cause Birkeland currents are available all over the Web.) Why not do the math and calculate how much energy is required for an electrical current to generate a 4,000 gauss aligned magnetic field?quote:
Go back now and watch the "Granddaddy" of all solar eruptions and tell me how that was due to "magnetic reconnection".
You said you don't want to talk to me about magnetic reconnection until I've read the book, so I won't until I have. You'be now made a claim about field-aligned currents, let's see you support it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 09:32:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
The standard theorists tend to be like Dave. They recognize the role of magnetic fields in plasma but they refuse to acknowledge that the only thing that can "hold" or "store" a powerful magnetic field in light thin plasma is an "electrified structure" of some sort.
More denial of reality from Michael, who refuses to acknowledge that the need for an electrical current is recognized by everyone that he disparages. Michael's incredulity and lack of competancy with basic electromagnetic theory are what is keeping him from understanding. But he refuses to educate himself on the subject. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Surface of the Sun, part 13
