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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2007 : 10:06:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
That has to be the world's worst rationalization. It is most certainly a new low for you personally. He falsified the concept of trying to show that any energy is released as a result of "magnetic reconnection", and he demonstrated where his work up to that point could only be used in very specific circumstances. If you had read the book, you'd know that he goes on to explain how to deal with current carrying plasmas in MHD theory in later chapters.
Thank you for admitting, Michael, that you stripped those quotes of their context.quote:
You however would not know about any of that because you're too damn lazy to even order the book.
Your psychic powers again?quote:
The sooner you get the book the sooner your show is busted.
This is your show, Michael, not mine.quote:
I guess that is why you haven't ordered the book.
No, it couldn't possibly be the price tag or any other reason, could it?  quote:
You sit there in ignorance and "assume" that every part of MHD theory relates only to zero curl (non current carrying) plasmas.
I did nothing of the sort, because that's not what Alfven said in that quote. Clearly, you don't have a clue as to what Alfven was saying, because "zero curl" is not nearly the same thing as "the perpendicular component of the curl is zero." He wasn't even talking about non-current carrying plasmas! Hell, the only non-current carrying plasma I can think of is one at zero Kelvin, which is a physical impossibility.quote:
Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but you wouldn't have a clue about any of that.
It's clear that you don't have a clue as to what Alfven was saying.quote:
The only thing that is ridiculous is your denial Dave.
My denial that Alfven was wrong is ridiculous? Don't you deny that Alfven was wrong?quote:
FYI despite your protestations you are one of the best "scientists" that I've met in cyberspace. I can't think of any other single individual that I would choose to "convert" if I had that power. You'd be an incredibly powerful ally, but only if you continue to educate yourself. Obviously that choice is yours, and your fate is in your own hands, not mine. I'll never convince you, you will have to convince yourself. You claim to want evidence that is "quantified". Here is your opportunity. Read his work.
The thing is, Michael, my reading his work won't demonstrate that you understand it. My hypothesis is that you don't, and you just keep repeating "magnetic reconnection is a myth" because that's what you think he said and he's your hero who can't possibly be wrong. Whether I read the book or not is immaterial to your ability to apply Alfven's work to your own model. Your utter failure to do so to date suggests that my hypothesis is correct.quote:
If however you never get off your lazy butt and buy that book, I will forever pity you.
Michael, I've got little enough respect for you already. Your pity isn't going to make an impact. I've got nothing to prove to you (the converse isn't true). So whether I get your respect or your pity is immaterial to me.quote:
IMO, you will have forever cut yourself off from the source of information that I believe will set you free.
Set me free from what? Thousands of mainstream solar scientists have read the book, yet you consider them to be fools.quote:
Until then I respect you too much to sit here and continue bashing heads with you ad nausea about a subject you clearly know nothing about.
At least I didn't try to pass off electron volts as a measure of current. I've got the integrity to admit my ignorance of the inside of Alfven's book. You, on the other hand, try to hide your ignorance of basic physics behind something which sounds like science, but isn't. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 10:20:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
This is what I thought. When you say things like "such-and-such idea is generally accepted by plasma cosmologists" you really just mean "by fringe scholars and independant researchers like me."
Alfven earned a Nobel Prize. Was he a "fringe researcher" too? Alfven did afterall write the book (quite literally) on plasma cosmology. How about Birkeland? Him too?
quote:
The whole rant against the "establishment" seems like some sort of persecution or conspiratorial complex.
That might be true if I felt "persecuted" in some overt systemic way. I certainly don't feel that way. Almost all of the material on my website comes from publicly available data in fact.
quote:
I somehow doubt that the people at Princeton or MIT are actively surpressing research or information--
I doubt it too.
quote:
especially if said ideas were as patently obvious as you claim!
The ideas are not "patently obvious" or I would have figured them out a very long time ago myself, and I would not have needed Alfven's books to do it.
quote:
As my alma mater,
Ah, there is an emotional attachment here I have to consider. ;) Got it. :)
quote:
There's that MHD you talk about. Are they also simply refusing to properly acknowledge Alfven?
They acknowledge his work just fine. I'm not convinced they understand the electrical aspects of his theories that relate to "magnetic reconnection" however. Perhaps you could have someone at your alma mater explain to you the unique physical/atomic energy release is associated with "magnetic reconnection"? How is that energy release specifically related to "magnetic reconnection" vs. induction, or electrical reconnection in plasma?
quote:
I won't pretend to understand what it is you're talking about with "currents" flowing through the universe,
It's very much like current (electrons) running through electrical wires. Astronomers recognize the wire, just not the electricity that flows through the wires. They imagine that the wires have an intrinsic magnetic field to them and no current flowing through the wire.
That electron flow has very different effects on plasmas than it has on solids, but the magnetic fields are generated by current flow, just as in the wire scenario. Since plasma is not rigid, it will not even hold a magnetic field like a solid.
By it's very nature, plasma tends to form threads when current is passed through it. Those threads carry the bulk of the current flow. Around those moving columns of plasma, we find very powerful magnetic fields. It's not that complicated to understand at a conceptual level, but it is relatively complicated to explain that behavior mathematically via laws of physics. Alfven however managed to do just that.
quote:
but I find it impossible to imagine that the dozens (or more) of PhD's and grad students at just the few universities I've looked at are all completely missing the obvious aspects of the unviverse you're claiming.
They are missing the electrical aspects as I am claiming. They do recognize the presence of the wire (plasma) (except for HH evidently), they recognize the magnetic field, but they fail to acknowledge the current flow that is responsible for these magnetic fields. That is not true of everyone obviously, and there are exceptions, but it's certainly the rule.
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| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/12/2007 10:30:54 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 10:28:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Thank you for admitting, Michael, that you stripped those
quotes of their context.
Oh for goodness sake Dave, you're rationalizations are becoming weirder by the moment. That's the thanks I get for locating the two most relevant quotes for you and for typing them in for you and everything? Thanks Dave for acknowledging my efforts to help you.
quote:
Your psychic powers again?
Have you ordered the book, yes or no?
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| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/12/2007 10:29:19 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 10:57:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Alfven earned a Nobel Prize. Was he a "fringe researcher" too? Alfven did afterall write the book (quite literally) on plasma cosmology. How about Birkeland? Him too?
. Well, that's two. But in general, it seems like no one else considers the special things you're considering. So yeah, it seems pretty fringe.
quote:
quote:
I somehow doubt that the people at Princeton or MIT are actively surpressing research or information--
I doubt it too.
And yet that all fail to acknowledge Alfven! Or whatever it is you claim they're all failing to acknowledge.
quote:
quote:
especially if said ideas were as patently obvious as you claim!
The ideas are not "patently obvious" or I would have figured them out a very long time ago myself, and I would not have needed Alfven's books to do it.
Ans all these poor scientists are just too stupid and lazy to see it, too, I guess.
quote:
quote:
As my alma mater,
Ah, there is an emotional attachment here I have to consider. ;) Got it. :)
Ha! How lame. I'm 3-for-3 in picking a school with reputable programs in physics and astronomy and seeing that they're doing work with plasma in the context of astrophysics. That I went to grad school isn't a secret and your lame reply misses the point-- how are all these smart people ignoring your hero Alvfen?
quote:
quote:
There's that MHD you talk about. Are they also simply refusing to properly acknowledge Alfven?
They acknowledge his work just fine. I'm not convinced they understand the electrical aspects of his theories that relate to "magnetic reconnection" however. Perhaps you could have someone at your alma mater explain to you the unique physical/atomic energy release is associated with "magnetic reconnection"? How is that energy release specifically related to "magnetic reconnection" vs. induction, or electrical reconnection in plasma?
Right. Next time I'm down that way, I'll stop in. Perhaps you could find a local university and do the same? (You needn't have graduated from there, even!)
quote:
quote:
I won't pretend to understand what it is you're talking about with "currents" flowing through the universe,
It's very much like current (electrons) running through electrical wires. Astronomers recognize the wire, just not the electricity that flows through the wires. They imagine that the wires have an intrinsic magnetic field to them and no current flowing through the wire.
I don't get the sense that anyone thinks that electrons aren't running through plasma. Or is that not what you're talking about?
quote:
By it's very nature, plasma tends to form threads when current is passed through it. Those threads carry the bulk of the current flow. Around those moving columns of plasma, we find very powerful magnetic fields. It's not that complicated to understand at a conceptual level, but it is relatively complicated to explain that behavior mathematically via laws of physics. Alfven however managed to do just that.
And you're saying that no one else believes this?
quote:
They are missing the electrical aspects as I am claiming. They do recognize the presence of the wire (plasma) (except for HH evidently), they recognize the magnetic field, but they fail to acknowledge the current flow that is responsible for these magnetic fields. That is not true of everyone obviously, and there are exceptions, but it's certainly the rule.
So virtually no mainstream scientists sees plasma in space? Or that electrons move through them? Really? |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 04/12/2007 11:01:51 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:02:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
Set me free from what?
Ignorance.
quote:
Thousands of mainstream solar scientists have read the book, yet you consider them to be fools.
I don't consider anyone to be a "fool" Dave. I totally resent the way you keep twisting my words like a pretzel and building strawmen out of my statements. My experience is that most mainstream astronomers have not read the book I suggested to you or *any* of his books. In fact I've only run into one "critic" that had actually read *any* material from any of Alfven's books. My opinion is that most mainstreamers are completely ignorant of his work, and have no more knowledge of it than you do right now. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:19:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloads/CosmologyAlfven.pdf
This will give you a short introduction to Plasma Cosmology if you are interested.
Thanks for the link. You should have posted that a long time ago. I did some library searches re "plasma universe" and got some interesting hits. Alvfen was writing a number of things like this, so it's not like it's been hidden under a rock. I'd like to see some critiques of his ideas, but it's tough to wade through it all. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:21:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
I don't consider anyone to be a "fool" Dave. I totally resent the way you keep twisting my words like a pretzel and building strawmen out of my statements. My experience is that most mainstream astronomers have not read the book I suggested to you or *any* of his books. In fact I've only run into one "critic" that had actually read *any* material from any of Alfven's books. My opinion is that most mainstreamers are completely ignorant of his work, and have no more knowledge of it than you do right now.
I find it hard to believe. My search yielded hndreds of hits for "plasma universe" meaning that lots of journals have articles on the topic. It is impossible to imagine that virtually the entire field simply skips such studies! |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:24:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
It's very much like current (electrons) running through electrical wires. Astronomers recognize the wire, just not the electricity that flows through the wires. They imagine that the wires have an intrinsic magnetic field to them and no current flowing through the wire.
So you're saying that astronomers believe in the impossible. How is that different from calling them fools directly?quote:
That electron flow has very different effects on plasmas than it has on solids, but the magnetic fields are generated by current flow, just as in the wire scenario.
The magnetic field generated by a current flowing through a wire is perpendicular to it, not parallel.quote:
Since plasma is not rigid, it will not even hold a magnetic field like a solid.
Wow. Show me a wooden block that "holds" a magnetic field, Michael.quote:
They are missing the electrical aspects as I am claiming.
But that's all you're doing is claiming it. You've got zero evidence that any astrophysicist actually ignores the "electrical aspects," because if they did, they wouldn't be able to do their jobs.quote:
They do recognize the presence of the wire (plasma) (except for HH evidently), they recognize the magnetic field, but they fail to acknowledge the current flow that is responsible for these magnetic fields. That is not true of everyone obviously, and there are exceptions, but it's certainly the rule.
Where's the evidence? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:29:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Well, that's two. But in general, it seems like no one else considers the special things you're considering. So yeah, it seems pretty fringe.
Fortunately however, science isn't a popularity contest. I've done papers with Dr. Oliver Manuel, a professor of Nuclear chemistry from the University of Missouri at Rolla. I'd say most consider him a "fringe" scientist too, but that has no affect on his findings in nuclear chemistry.
The term "fringe" is one of those terms that really has no scientific relevancy.
quote:
And yet that all fail to acknowledge Alfven! Or whatever it is you claim they're all failing to acknowledge.
They are failing to recognize the electrical current that is running through the plasma.
quote:
Ans all these poor scientists are just too stupid and lazy to see it, too, I guess.
I never called anyone "stupid", and I only called Dave "lazy". I think most astronomers were never taught electrical engineering and that is a big handicap if you're trying to understand an electric universe.
quote:
Ha! How lame. I'm 3-for-3 in picking a school with reputable programs in physics and astronomy and seeing that they're doing work with plasma in the context of astrophysics. That I went to grad school isn't a secret and your lame reply misses the point-- how are all these smart people ignoring your hero Alvfen?
They are simply not recognizing the role of the electrons flowing through the plasma. That is hardly surprising since most astronomers are taught astronomy in terms of gravity and magnetic fields. They are not required to take any classes on electrical engineering, and rarely any classes on plasma physics.
quote:
Right. Next time I'm down that way, I'll stop in. Perhaps you could find a local university and do the same? (You needn't have graduated from there, even!)
The only university that I'm aware of that is actively researching "magnetic reconnection" is PPPL, and they can't define what is physically/atomically unique about magnetic reconnection is any better than you can. All of their "tests" for magnetic reconnection involve massive electrical current to perform. These tests last less than a second, and terminate the moment the electricity stops flowing. As Alfven explained, even their method itself is misleading.
That seems to be the "cutting edge" of technology as it relates to "magnetic reconnection" and they haven't gotten to first base yet. Nobody at PPPL can even tell you what the actual energy release mechanism looks like at a physical level, and all of their experiments require huge amounts of current flow. That doesn't give me much confidence in the idea.
quote:
I don't get the sense that anyone thinks that electrons aren't running through plasma. Or is that not what you're talking about?
They may recognize that electrons are present, but they are not recognizing the large quantity of electrons flowing through the plasma in things like coronal loops or even plasma filaments in deep space. About the only significant current flow they acknowledge is Birkeland Current that form aurora.
quote:
And you're saying that no one else believes this?
NO, I'm not saying that. Alfven's students believed him. At least one of them works at Los Alamos. There are lots of people who believed Alfven, but the mainstream as a whole is mostly ignorant of his work.
quote:
So virtually no mainstream scientists sees plasma in space?
No, that's exactly the opposite of what I actually said. Most mainstreamers recognize that the plasma is there, they don't recognize the current flow *inside of it*. HH is the only person I've ever met anywhere that seemed to think there was some debate about the presence of plasma in space. HH is the certainly the exception not the rule.
quote:
Or that electrons move through them? Really?
Really. That part they do not acknowledge. They will acknowledge the rule of very powerful magnetic fields in and around coronal loops, but they will not discuss or consider the current flow that drives this process. They recognize that plasmas of space contain magnetic fields, but they refuse to acknowledge that it is electrical current that creates these fields and sustains them in the plasma. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:34:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I find it hard to believe.
Believe me when I tell you that I found it hard to believe as well, but it's true. I've talked to a lot of astronomers, and I've yet to meet one of them that owns the book I suggested, or any of his books for that matter. Don't take my word for it. Ask them. I did. I was stunned at the response.
quote:
My search yielded hndreds of hits for "plasma universe" meaning that lots of journals have articles on the topic. It is impossible to imagine that virtually the entire field simply skips such studies!
Name one person on this board that owns even one of Alfven's books. You might get lucky with Dr. Mabuse, but based on the odds I've seen in the general astronomy population, I'm skeptical that even he owns any of Alfven's books. I know Dave doesn't. I know John doesn't either. If Dr. Mabuse doesn't own one, then probably nobody that has engaged me in these debates has read any of Alfven's books. Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself. Ask them like I did. I'm telling you I was stunned. |
| Edited by - Michael Mozina on 04/12/2007 11:37:07 |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:36:04 [Permalink]
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| Did you order the book Dave, yes or no? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:37:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
Oh for goodness sake Dave, you're rationalizations are becoming weirder by the moment.
You posted two quotes, and then basically told me that I couldn't possibly understand them without reading the rest of the book. You removed the context entirely, and then complained that I had taken the quotes out of context. That you shamelessly resort to that sort of intellectual thuggery is why I have so little respect for you, Michael.
That, and the fact that you refuse to discuss your theory at all anymore. But you're on the ropes, there, so I'm not surprised. Best if you just stop talking about it rather than demonstrate it to be wrong any more than you already have. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Michael Mozina
SFN Regular
1647 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:39:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The magnetic field generated by a current flowing through a wire is perpendicular to it, not parallel.
Yes, but in Alfven waves in plasma, the magnetic field and the current flow are parallel. That is the difference between a current flowing through a solid and a current flowing through a plasma.
Did you order the book yet? |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 11:39:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mozina
They will acknowledge the rule of very powerful magnetic fields in and around coronal loops, but they will not discuss or consider the current flow that drives this process. They recognize that plasmas of space contain magnetic fields, but they refuse to acknowledge that it is electrical current that creates these fields and sustains them in the plasma.
Yeah, that's why they're so busy studying field-aligned currents in the plasma, so that they can avoid discussing or considering currents in the plasma. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Surface of the Sun, part 13
