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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2007 : 07:33:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
In this debate, you have just reframed the China issue as an environmental one, in terms of global warming, as a matter of convenience because it would make you happy if, for any reason, even one you do not agree with, we could make the China problem go away.
I think you give Bill far too much credit.
As far as I can tell, this shifting-the-focus to China isn't supposed to make China go away, it's supposed to make Global Warming go away, as in, "even if GW is a problem, we can't worry about it because China is a bigger threat." Basically pretending we can't do anything to curb our emissions until China does something about their's. It's like the arms race the U.S. had with the soviets, only this time its power plants and economic superiority with the Chinese. We can't blink until they do.
It's amazing how for conservatives everything comes down to money and power. It's better to destroy the planet and stay number one then do anything which might disturb the U.S. position as the world's last remaining superpower.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 07:57:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
You take the same view our government has taken, which conveniently protects industries that happen to be the largest contributors of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Please give an example of where I protected any industry in their CO2 contribution. That is you in your attempted apologetics of Al Gore's jet set and mansion life style.
quote:
And yet you seem to care about China's coal burning power plants that, if the minority view is correct, poses no danger in contributing to global warming.
Here we go again, because I dismiss Al Gore's movie on MMGW then, by default, I can not be any kind of environmentalist what so ever or even care about the environment. (sigh) Just because I dismiss MMGW, which would mean that burning more coal would not increase MMGW, this does not mean that I dismiss such real issues as air pollution as well. What makes you Al Gore apologists think you are the only ones who can be concerned with the environment, if even it is, obviously, just for a show?
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I suspect that the real danger you see in China's industrialization is that China has the potential to rival the US as an economic powerhouse that would threaten our position as top dog and all of the influence that goes with it.
Potential? Toyota just passed GM today.
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That too is a conservative view.
No, that is a realists view.
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Coincidence?
I think not.
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Conservative pundants go on and on about China.
Well considering they just passed the USA in auto and CO2 manufacturing I predict a lot of people are going to go on and on about China. Do you expect the media to not cover either story?
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In this debate, you have just reframed the China issue as an environmental one,
With the facts coming out that China is bringing one new coal fired power plant on line every week with India fast on their coattails the reframing was done for me.
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in terms of global warming,
Like I said many times now, MMGW or no MMGW, it is my opinion that all of these coal fired power plants going up in the newly industrialized nations can not be a good thing for the environment. Replacing light bulbs here in the US is the l |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 08:30:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
As far as I can tell, this shifting-the-focus to China isn't supposed to make China go away,
That is correct.
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it's supposed to make Global Warming go away,
If the theory of MMGW is correct, then this news that China, India, and beyond are going coal bigger and faster then we ever predicted should come as great alarm to you! It comes as a great alarm to me, MMGW or no MMGW, strictly from an environmental point of view. I am financially secure if I never worked another day of my life so this has nothing to do with me worrying about China taking my job. It just blows my mind that this concerns me from an environmental position but rather then discuss it and what can be done to curb this trend this forum would rather prop up Al Gore as a great guy and accuse me of only being concerned about being rich and powerful. (sigh)
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as in, "even if GW is a problem, we can't worry about it because China is a bigger threat.
I am just pointing out that we now have a bigger problem then just the US CO2 contribution to throw into the equation. If you have two potentially mortal wounds then it is silly to attend to one and ignore the other.
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Basically pretending we can't do anything to curb our emissions until China does something about their's.
When did I say such a thing? I, pesonaly, have just begun the switch to CFL's.
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It's amazing how for conservatives everything comes down to money and power. It's better to destroy the planet and stay number one then do anything which might disturb the U.S. position as the world's last remaining superpower.
That is rich considering I am the one sounding off on the rapid proliferation of coal power in the world and all this forum wants to do is prop up Al Gore. It's better to prop up your political hero and get warm fuzzes from new light bulbs then to acknowledge the bleak outlook we are facing.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 09:19:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
You take the same view our government has taken, which conveniently protects industries that happen to be the largest contributors of CO2 in the atmosphere.
quote:
Bill Scott:
Please give an example of where I protected any industry in their CO2 contribution. That is you in your attempted apologetics of Al Gore's jet set and mansion life style.
So you don't go along with the governments protection of those industries that are the largest contributors of greenhouse gases in this country? You actually believe we should do everything we can to reduce greenhouse gases?
As for your Al Gore issue, (and believe me that is your issue since you seem to think that anyone who accepts the world wide scientific consensus on the data supporting global warming is a tool or an apologist for Al Gore, which you brought up in your first post in this thread and subsequently almost every post after that, no matter what was said to you) please kindly shove it up your ass. Every single time I or anyone else mentions anything about the science that supports GW or really, anything else to do with global warming, you bring it back to Al Gore as though we are a bunch of dribbling idiots who fawn over every word that he has to say.
Get this through your thick skull. He is a private citizen doing what he thinks is right. Like it or not your feelings about how he chooses to spend his time does not erase the science that supports global warming. I am sick to death of your Al Gore strawman. I don't care what you think of him, and I don't take my marching orders from Al. I have looked at the data. You know, that data that you have avoided and have yet to comment on as mentioned in my last post.
Below is an example of what you do Bill. And frankly it goes a long way to supporting what Dude thinks of you. I have said that I don't think you are a liar. But lying by omission is a lie. Cherry picking what you want to quote and ignoring the context is also a lie. Offer an apology, make a correction or fess up to what you do because I don't want to spend anymore time on this if you are just going to twist what I am saying to mean what you want it to mean…
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Me:
I take it that you are concerned about the environment.
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Bill Scott:
Here we go again, because I dismiss Al Gore's movie on MMGW then, by default, I can not be any kind of environmentalist what so ever or even care about the environment.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 10:32:23 [Permalink]
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| Please keep it civil or I'll have to rethink what I said about the science forums being a waste of time. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 11:06:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
So you don't go along with the governments protection of those industries that are the largest contributors of greenhouse gases in this country?
I thought that I clearly stated that I hate big oil, and the fat CEO's that run it, and the all politicians who are puppets for it.
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You actually believe we should do everything we can to reduce greenhouse gases?
As clearly articulated on this forum, everything within reason.
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As for your Al Gore issue, (and believe me that is your issue since you seem to think that anyone who accepts the world wide scientific consensus on the data supporting global warming is a tool or an apologist for Al Gore, which you brought up in your first post in this thread and subsequently almost every post after that, no matter what was said to you) please kindly shove it up your ass. Every single time I or anyone else mentions anything about the science that supports GW or really, anything else to do with global warming, you bring it back to Al Gore as though we are a bunch of dribbling idiots who fawn over every word that he has to say.
My message was that it would be in the best interest of a united environmental movement here in the states if Al Gore was placed in time out. IMO he is dividing folks who pretty much agree on the core issues. Rather then discussing my idea on uniting the folks all you wanted to do was prop Al Gore back up, again and again and again. Every time I wanted to unite the folks for the sake of a push on the politicians and the free market to come up with a green energy source all you wanted to do was save face for Al or debate MMGW. It's like it is irrelevant to you if I want to join you in the push for green energy if I have not yet embraced the theory of MMGW or Al Gore's presentation of it. One more time, I am on board with you and the need to push the government and free market for green energy, does it really matter at this point if I am a believer in MMGW or not?
quote:
Get this through your thick skull. He is a private citizen doing what he thinks is right. Like it or not your feelings about how he chooses to spend his time does not erase the science that supports global warming. I am sick to death of your Al Gore strawman. I don't care what you think of him, and I don't take my marching orders from Al. I have looked at the data. You know, that data that you have avoided and have yet to comment on as mentioned in my last post.
And you get this through your thick skull. While you and Al are over here debating the theory of MMGW with the folks, China is building one new coal fired power plant ever week. So just about the time you and Al wrap up your show on MMGW China will have their 544 coal fired power plants up and running and the MMGW cause will have been for not. Remember the battle here is to find a green energy source to offset the worlds demand for fossil fuel energy. Not to convince all the doubters that MMGW is a real phenomena. Aga |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 13:51:46 [Permalink]
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Bill back to his old lying self said:
quote:
It just blows my mind that this concerns me from an environmental position but rather then discuss it and what can be done to curb this trend this forum would rather prop up Al Gore as a great guy
You, you lackwit, are the one who keeps interjecting Al Gore into these conversations.
Should we just allow your slander of him to pass unchallenged? No. Especially when you are absolutely wrong. You are just blathering back some talking point memo on global warming and Al Gore because the republican party is terrified of the chance Al Gore will enter the 2008 presidential race. They have started up the spin and slander machine in response to his current popularity and fear that he would easily trash any of the republicans in a general election.
What is really telling here is your continued slander of the man.
I think you have raised these environmental issues, and taken a quasi-reasonable stance on some of them, for the sole purpose of slandering Al Gore. You pretend to be a friend of the environment so you can ridicule Al Gore for owning a mansion and flying around in a private plane.
Why else would you persist in bringing his name into this debate at every opportunity? There is no other plausible explanation of your behavior here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 16:24:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
You don't think that it is stupid to say using one square of paper in the can vs. two can make a difference in the war on MMGW?
I think that there are other simpler things that can make more of a difference, without potentially compromizing personal hygene.
And saving paper does save energy by the way of manufacturing paper.
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You clean out your back yard,
Relax, Al Gore is on the job.
But he's obviously not swaying you and your ilk. What does it take to make you realize how serious it is? Jesus appearing before you saying MMGW is real and ordering you to clean up your act?
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and I'll clean out mine.
How so?
Do you have a reading disability or a comprehension disability? I've already given you examples of what I've done personally, what Sweden has done, and what Europe is doing.
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India and China are going to have to clean up their act too,
That is what I have been saying.
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but they need to build an economy strong enough first.
Yes, and as I have been pointing out, it looks like they are going to build that economy with coal power.
USA built its economy on oil, so you are bloody hypocritical to demand India and China to do so much more for the environment.
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USA already have an economy strong enough.
I thought GWB destroyed the US economy a few years back with all those tax cuts?
Don't forget his illegal war against Iraq...
You (people of USA) elected that fraud when you could have elected Al Gore in the first place. The rest of the would would have respected you. Now the majority of the world either hates USA, fears USA, or both.
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Then why aren't you doing anything about it?
I ride 125 miles a week on my bicycle... ...I recently began the switch to compact flouresnt light bulbs with my first bulb change.
Good for you.
Now, convince your politicians to go green in legislation and taxation. Then you'll get closer to earning my respect.
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Talk is cheap! You talk the talk, but you don't even believe in it!
How come just because I don't buy the MMGW scare that means, by default, that I can not be concerned about environmental issues? As if the MMGW alarmists has a stronghold on, and is the end all be all of, the environmental movement. (sigh)
You got a point there. MMGW is an extremely important issue, but as you say, it isn't all of the environmental movement.
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All rethoric and no substance.
Jesus said: "Clean up your own act before you start pointing fingers."
Gore is an American.
What?
I was paraphrasing the Good Book. Don't you recognize the passage?
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China have their own environmentalists.
From the numbers I see coming out of China let be the first to tell you that they are, obviously, rather ineffective.
So far... probably yes. But they do get pressure internationally too. If not from the USA government (who are denying MMGW) then from other industrialised nations in the world. Europe among others. Sweden is exporting "green technology" to China.
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Yes, and that's because there are a lot of politicians and corporate owners who stand to profit from the controversy.
On both sides of the issue.
Really?
Evidence please? The big bucks comes from the oil industries, and their lobby organizations. There are no organizations that I know of on the Green Side that can spend even a fraction of the oil lobby.
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Why are the White House still trying to downplay the threat of MMGW
They didn't tell me.
I can give you a clue: they are in cohoots with the oil-industry.
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despite the overwhelming evidence?
What evidence?
Denial mode again?
Go suck on a lemon, if that's the game you want to play...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2007 : 17:06:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
For the last year or two, maybe longer, MMGW is all you ever hear about. It's everywhere. Sheryl Crow was just plastered on the front page for today's MMGW update as saying everyone only needs to use one square of toilet paper per visit to the can, unless two or three are required. And this will help combat China who is building 1 new coal fired power plant per week? This is a laughingstock and Al Gore has the lead roll.
About that....
quote:
Sheryl Crow Clears the Air About Toilet Paper Comments
Rocker Says the Joke Was Intended to Draw Attention to Global Warming
April 24, 2007 — - It all started with a joke.
Wrapping up a nationwide global warming tour, singer-songwriter Sheryl Crow posted a quirky "solution" online about a new way to save the environment.
She wrote: "I propose a limitation be put on how many squares of toilet paper can be used in any one sitting."
She told the joke to get people's attention, and it worked. Talk show hosts had a field day with Crow's comments.
"Have you seen my [backside]?" Rosie O'Donnell joked on "The View."
"It seemed like Sheryl was trying to be a little bit cheeky, no pun intended," said Michelle Lee, executive editor of In Touch weekly.
Maybe Crow was inspired by her ecoactivist partner Laurie David. After all, David's husband, Larry David, of "Seinfeld" fame, wrote the famous episode where Elaine says to a neighbor in the next bathroom stall:
"Three squares? You can't spare three squares?"
"No, I don't have a square to spare. I can't spare a square," the woman responds.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone took this remark seriously. Anyone that dumb has to be in a pre-permanent, vegetative state.
Please tell me that everyone here got a laugh out of it and no more...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 17:17:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Please tell me that everyone here got a laugh out of it and no more...
I suspected the comment was in jest, but since I don't know Crow enough, I'm in no position to make a judgement on her intellectual capacity.
Fact remains though, saving paper saves energy, and since most paper-manufacturing plants use oil for heat, it would also mean less fossile CO2. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 18:26:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
My message was that it would be in the best interest of a united environmental movement here in the states if Al Gore was placed in time out. IMO he is dividing folks who pretty much agree on the core issues. Rather then discussing my idea on uniting the folks all you wanted to do was prop Al Gore back up, again and again and again. Every time I wanted to unite the folks for the sake of a push on the politicians and the free market to come up with a green energy source all you wanted to do was save face for Al or debate MMGW. It's like it is irrelevant to you if I want to join you in the push for green energy if I have not yet embraced the theory of MMGW or Al Gore's presentation of it. One more time, I am on board with you and the need to push the government and free market for green energy, does it really matter at this point if I am a believer in MMGW or not?
Bullshit. We were all very impressed that you are an environmentalist. Reasonable comments from you are not what we have come to expect. That said, it is you, Bill, who keeps bringing up Al Gore. Any mention of GW and you bring him up as though he owns the issue. But hey, don't believe me. Let me give you some recent examples…
quote:
Bill quoted me saying:
You take the same view our government has taken, which conveniently protects industries that happen to be the largest contributors of CO2 in the atmosphere.
quote:
Bill's response was:
Please give an example of where I protected any industry in their CO2 contribution. That is you in your attempted apologetics of Al Gore's jet set and mansion life style.
Now, you could have said I was wrong about your view of the government (even though you and our government both deny man made global warming, so I did get that part correct at least). But nooooo. Al Gore made me say it… And by the way, our government has been denying GW from the get-go. And it really is convenient for them to do so.
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Bill quoted me saying:
And yet you seem to care about China's coal burning power plants that, if the minority view is correct, poses no danger in contributing to global warming.
quote:
Bill's response was:
Here we go again, because I dismiss Al Gore's movie on MMGW then, by default, I can not be any kind of environmentalist what so ever or even care about the environment. (sigh) Just because I dismiss MMGW, which would mean that burning more coal would not increase MMGW, this does not mean that I dismiss such real issues as air pollution as well. What makes you Al Gore apologists think you are the only ones who can be concerned with the environment, if even it is, obviously, just for a show?
The last quote is especially problematic because I have acknowledged that you are concerned for the environment. That makes the above quote a classic strawman because it argues against an imaginary comment that I didn't make. You also bring up Al Gore again and with no provocation to do so. I didn't mention him. I was wondering about |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 16:25:48 [Permalink]
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Bill, I happen to support Al Gore, and largely because of his effective stand on MMGW, but I do not accept MMGW on Gore's personal word.
You have repeatedly gone ad hominem by injecting this layman into the issue. Though he has arguably done more to popularize the issue than any other human being, the scientific consensus on MMGW does not belong to Gore, nor does it stand or fall on the world of any single person, even a scientist.
I have a dog, Bill, a loving and beloved little black Chihuahua named Missy, which belonged to my father before me. Adolph Hitler had a dog, Blondi, and was said to be quite affectionate toward her (except for testing cyanide on her), and vice versa. But interjecting Hitler into a discussion about whether dogs are good companions (or as to whether I am Hitler-like) is essentially meaningless. Likewise, Al Gore's acknowledgment of MMGW is itself irrelevant to whether MMGW itself is real, since he is a layman.
Unless your purpose is to promote Mr. Gore for his wisdom in accepting the scientific consensus, why don't we leave him out of this, and concentrate on the science?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 17:30:02 [Permalink]
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Half said:
quote:
Unless your purpose is to promote Mr. Gore for his wisdom in accepting the scientific consensus, why don't we leave him out of this, and concentrate on the science?
I'm tellin ya... thos whole thig by billy here is anti-Gore spin. Bill may have some small interest in protecting the environment, but for him this is all about shitting on Al Gore.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 18:23:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Half said:
quote:
Unless your purpose is to promote Mr. Gore for his wisdom in accepting the scientific consensus, why don't we leave him out of this, and concentrate on the science?
I'm tellin ya... thos whole thig by billy here is anti-Gore spin. Bill may have some small interest in protecting the environment, but for him this is all about shitting on Al Gore.
Yup, it was my point that Bill's repeated mentions of Gore effectively only serve to promote Gore, and do not detract from the reality of MMGW. So maybe I should have encouraged him.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 13:44:59 [Permalink]
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| Bill's constant harping againt Gore have made me decide to finally watch his movie, to see what the fuss is all about. Thank you, Bill, for nudging me into action. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Political hacks water down global warming report
