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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:55:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
Again, my point being, why let Al Gore, who fly's around in his private jet and maintains a private mansion, all while preaching personal sacrifice to the folks, be the lead spokesman on the MMGW issue, when all he does is create controversy and political issues?
What do you mean by “let Al Gore”? This is an issue he cares about. He wasn't tapped for the job. He could be kicking it in his great big back yard sipping ice-cold beer while flipping steaks on his barbeque. Or perhaps he could be enjoying a protracted cruise on his (I don't really know if he has one) yacht while deckhands tend to his every need. (And Tipper too.)
Instead he spends his time, because he can, talking about global warming. It isn't as though the Dems got together and decided to have Al do it. Gore is doing what he is doing because it is what he wants to do. Call him what you will, but it is his time and effort that is helping to bring GW into the consciousness of our citizens. And I am sure he would rather see a debate on this issue than not have it thought about at all. Call him a hypocrite if you want to. Doesn't matter. He is getting the job done.
Bashing Gore does not erase the science that he is presenting. All of that jet fuel is going to a good cause if it results in making people aware of what is at stake if we keep doing business as usual.
“You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.”
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2007 : 21:35:02 [Permalink]
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bill(once again lying)scott said:
quote:
What is the main goal of the MMGW crowd? From what I can tell the main goal is to produce affordable green energy that will allow us to ease, if not eliminate, our lust for fossil fuels as the main energy source. Push clean air and water, push an elimination to middle east oil, push the fact that China has 544 new coal fired power plants in the works as your reason for the need for green energy. As a conservative I would wager that most other conservatives would join you side by side if this was the bill of goods that you sold to them, rather then Al leapfrogging the country in his gulfstream and making science-fiction movies.
Well, I suspected that reasonable discourse with you was a fluke. Was interesting while it lasted though....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/21/2007 : 00:10:59 [Permalink]
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Hear hear! Well said, Kil!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 02:52:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
rather then Al leapfrogging the country in his gulfstream and making science-fiction movies.
That's pretty rich coming from someone who believes that fantacy scribblings of a bronze-age tribe of sheep-herders is The Truth & Word of God(tm). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 07:03:00 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: quote:
all while preaching personal sacrifice to the folks
I countered this several pages ago in this thread. Gore does not preach personal sacrifice to folks. He preaches many small changes in lifestyle which - as you have noted - are not real sacrifices. And moreso, he preaches major changes on institutional levels, which requires political will, not the will of individual folks. So I think you are totally misrepresenting what Gore is doing here.
quote:
As a conservative I would wager that most other conservatives would join you side by side if this was the bill of goods that you sold to them, rather then Al leapfrogging the country in his gulfstream and making science-fiction movies.
You are the one making it seem as if Al Gore is the be-all, end-all of the environmental movement. But tons of various efforts have been made toward that cause by all sorts of people, including your recommendations. People should be responsible for checking out the info on their own and forming their own sensible opinions about issues. This idea that the right stance on issues needs to be presented in such a way for it to be palatable enough for conservatives (or any other group of people) is to talk about that group as if they are mindless, lazy, ignorant sheep. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 04:31:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
All of that jet fuel is going to a good cause if it results in making people aware of what is at stake if we keep doing business as usual.
You, obviously, are not about cleaning up the environment, you are about propping up AG. For whatever political reason I don't know?
Everybody who burns up jet fuel thinks that it for a good cause if it involves them burning the jet fuel. I use your private flight to Vegas as example.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2007 : 06:08:01 [Permalink]
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Here's something that all of us, including Bill, will find just a little disgusting: quote:
Laurie David and Sheryl Crow
04.22.2007
Karl Rove Gets Thrown Under the Stop Global Warming Bus (428 comments )
READ MORE: Karl Rove, Sheryl Crow, Laurie David, White House
Last night Thelma and Louise drove the bus off the cliff or at least into the White House Correspondents Dinner. The "highlight" of the evening had to be when we were introduced to Karl Rove. How excited were we to have our first opportunity ever to talk directly to the Bush Administration about global warming.
We asked Mr. Rove if he would consider taking a fresh look at the science of global warming. Much to our dismay, he immediately got combative. And it went downhill from there.
We reminded the senior White House advisor that the US leads the world in global warming pollution and we are doing the least about it. Anger flaring, Mr. Rove immediately regurgitated the official Administration position on global warming which is that the US spends more on researching the causes than any other country.
We felt compelled to remind him that the research is done and the results are in (www.IPCC.ch). Mr. Rove exploded with even more venom. Like a spoiled child throwing a tantrum, Mr. Rove launched into a series of illogical arguments regarding China not doing enough thus neither should we. (Since when do we follow China's lead?)
O' course, Mr. Rove has his personal problems to resolve; problems that could, one hopes, get his ass tossed into the can.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/23/2007 06:10:43 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 06:59:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Me:
All of that jet fuel is going to a good cause if it results in making people aware of what is at stake if we keep doing business as usual.
quote:
Bill Scott:
You, obviously, are not about cleaning up the environment, you are about propping up AG. For whatever political reason I don't know?
I was responding to your constant Gore bashing. Your response is to attack me personally. Figures…
quote:
Bill Scott:
Everybody who burns up jet fuel thinks that it for a good cause if it involves them burning the jet fuel. I use your private flight to Vegas as example.
You will have to find a better example since I didn't defend that flight as for any cause at all. Also, you broke your word by attempting to use that flight against me again. Figures…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 07:30:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
I was responding to your constant Gore bashing.
My Gore "bashing" was a recommendation to put him and his traveling sideshow in timeout. And then push alternative energy to try and offset the non-industrialized nations who are going industrialized with coal and what not. Push this for the sake of clean water, clear air, and the elimination of middle east oil dependency. I stated that it was my belief that this would be a bill of goods that both sides could stand behind with a united front and actually get something done with this whole environmental movement. But rather then discuss this option you choose to prop up Al Gore instead and defend his jet fuel consumption as justified. Again, I am sure everyone who worries about MMGW can justify all their travels if they really want to.
quote:
You will have to find a better example since I didn't defend that flight as for any cause at all.
Defend it or not, you still took it. My point being if you, a MMGW pusher, do not even consider the issue when given the means for exotic travel what makes you think anyone else will?
quote:
Also, you broke your word by attempting to use that flight against me again. Figures…
I thought I said I would try to not be so sarcastic? Never the less, fine, I won't bring up your private flight anymore if you don't want me to.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 10:48:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
My Gore "bashing" was a recommendation to put him and his traveling sideshow in timeout. And then push alternative energy to try and offset the non-industrialized nations who are going industrialized with coal and what not. Push this for the sake of clean water, clear air, and the elimination of middle east oil dependency. I stated that it was my belief that this would be a bill of goods that both sides could stand behind with a united front and actually get something done with this whole environmental movement. But rather then discuss this option you choose to prop up Al Gore instead and defend his jet fuel consumption as justified. Again, I am sure everyone who worries about MMGW can justify all their travels if they really want to.
You seem totally oblivious to the political situation in your country.
For things to start happening you need it to start from two different kinds of people.
You need grass-root people to be aware of the problem of MMGW. Today they are mostly happily oblivious to the damage they are doing to the environment.
The second kind of people are those of political power, who make laws and can set taxes on "bad behaviour". But as long as many politicians get large contributions from oil-dependent industries and don't hear enough voices from their voters, they will happily remain oblivious too.
REALITY CHECK: You can't get people to change(!) Unless they become aware of the seriousness of the situation.
Today, not nearly enough (by a long shot) are aware of the seriousness of the situation. Hence there will not be any change forthcoming. But if Al Gore is touring your country making people aware, then the awareness-level will increase until it reaches a critical mass and the political ball starts rolling.
At that point, the benefits of reduced CO2 will compensate for Al Gore's higher contribution, and much much more.
To bash Al Gore for his flights is myopic in the grander perspective, and it makes you look small and petty, Bill. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/23/2007 10:49:48 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 12:45:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
You seem totally oblivious to the political situation in your country.
Let me guess, your going to straighten me out?
quote:
For things to start happening you need it to start from two different kinds of people.
You need grass-root people to be aware of the problem of MMGW. Today they are mostly happily oblivious to the damage they are doing to the environment.
For the last year or two, maybe longer, MMGW is all you ever hear about. It's everywhere. Sheryl Crow was just plastered on the front page for today's MMGW update as saying everyone only needs to use one square of toilet paper per visit to the can, unless two or three are required. And this will help combat China who is building 1 new coal fired power plant per week? This is a laughingstock and Al Gore has the lead roll.
quote:
The second kind of people are those of political power, who make laws and can set taxes on "bad behaviour". But as long as many politicians get large contributions from oil-dependent industries and don't hear enough voices from their voters, they will happily remain oblivious too.
You might want to tell that to China, India, and all the others coming down the pipe who have access to cheep coal and no practical geen option to go with even if they wanted to.
quote:
REALITY CHECK: You can't get people to change(!) Unless they become aware of the seriousness of the situation.
Today, not nearly enough (by a long shot) are aware of the seriousness of the situation. Hence there will not be any change forthcoming. But if Al Gore is touring your country making people aware, then the awareness-level will increase until it reaches a critical mass and the political ball starts rolling.
That's all we hear about over here in our little corner of the world.
quote:
At that point, the benefits of reduced CO2 will compensate for Al Gore's higher contribution, and much much more.
What reduced CO2? If Al Gore were serious about reducing CO2 he would give up touring with his 3 ring circus and be over in China right now passing out his movie. Each week he could go to the location of the latest coal fired power plant to start burning. Him flying around the US lecture circuit over here in the states is nothing short of comedy.
quote:
To bash Al Gore for his flights is myopic in the grander perspective, and it makes you look small and petty, Bill.
Let's see, I point out that the MMGW theory is a divisive and controversial topic which seems to have split the country, rather then unite it. I suggest that if Al Gore is placed in timeout and the theory of MMGW is replaced with the fact that China is well on it's way to a coal future with 1 new coal fired power plant opening up every week, with India not far on their heels, that this is all that is needed to build a united front among the folks in pushing the politicians and the free market to come up with that green and practical solution to coal energy. You see, most in this country are aware of the MMGW issue, in fact many would say that it has been rammed down our throats of late. But I am very confident that most of the folks have no idea that China is ramping up, to those extents, for coal power. I am even more confident that less know that India is fast on China's coattails. Yet when I recommend that we drop Al Gore and his lecture tour in favor of addressing a real solution rather then a superficial one all anybody here want's to do is prop Al Gore back up and defend his Gulf Stream and mansion?????? Now who looks small and pety?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 13:28:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Sheryl Crow was just plastered on the front page for today's MMGW update as saying everyone only needs to use one square of toilet paper per visit to the can, unless two or three are required. And this will help combat China who is building 1 new coal fired power plant per week? This is a laughingstock and Al Gore has the lead roll.
So, Sheryl Crow says something you think is stupid, and you go on to blame it on Al Gore?
quote:
You might want to tell that to China, India, and all the others coming down the pipe who have access to cheep coal and no practical geen option to go with even if they wanted to.
You clean out your back yard, and I'll clean out mine.
India and China are going to have to clean up their act too, but they need to build an economy strong enough first. USA already have an economy strong enough.
quote:
quote:
REALITY CHECK: You can't get people to change(!) Unless they become aware of the seriousness of the situation.
That's all we hear about over here in our little corner of the world.
Then why aren't you doing anything about it?
Talk is cheap! You talk the talk, but you don't even believe in it!
quote:
What reduced CO2? If Al Gore were serious about reducing CO2 he would give up touring with his 3 ring circus and be over in China right now passing out his movie. Each week he could go to the location of the latest coal fired power plant to start burning. Him flying around the US lecture circuit over here in the states is nothing short of comedy.
...
All rethoric and no substance.
Jesus said: "Clean up your own act before you start pointing fingers."
Gore is an American. China have their own environmentalists.
quote:
quote:
To bash Al Gore for his flights is myopic in the grander perspective, and it makes you look small and petty, Bill.
Let's see, I point out that the MMGW theory is a divisive and controversial topic which seems to have split the country, rather then unite it.
Yes, and that's because there are a lot of politicians and corporate owners who stand to profit from the controversy.
quote:
blah blah blah ...China... blah blah ...coal plant... blah blah ...India... blah blah ...Al Gore... blah blah...
Nothing new from you.
What is the Neo-Con talking points on MMGW? Why are the White House still trying to downplay the threat of MMGW despite the overwhelming evidence?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/23/2007 13:34:47 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 04:52:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
So, Sheryl Crow says something you think is stupid,
You don't think that it is stupid to say using one square of paper in the can vs. two can make a difference in the war on MMGW?
quote:
and you go on to blame it on Al Gore?
I don't blame Al Gore for what Ms. Crow said. I simply said that he was the lead clown in this 3 ring circus
quote:
You clean out your back yard,
Relax, Al Gore is on the job.
quote:
and I'll clean out mine.
How so?
quote:
India and China are going to have to clean up their act too,
That is what I have been saying.
quote:
but they need to build an economy strong enough first.
Yes, and as I have been pointing out, it looks like they are going to build that economy with coal power.
quote:
USA already have an economy strong enough.
I thought GWB destroyed the US economy a few years back with all those tax cuts?
quote:
Then why aren't you doing anything about it?
I ride 125 miles a week on my bicycle, I drive less then 10,000 miles a year and that is for work, I have not flown in a gas sucking air craft since 2000 and I sound off on all the new coal fired power plants that are slated to go up around the world in the coming years. Cut me some slack, I am conservative after all. Oh yes, and I recently began the switch to compact flouresnt light bulbs with my first bulb change.
quote:
Talk is cheap! You talk the talk, but you don't even believe in it!
How come just because I don't buy the MMGW scare that means, by default, that I can not be concerned about environmental issues? As if the MMGW alarmists has a stronghold on, and is the end all be all of, the environmental movement. (sigh)
quote:
All rethoric and no substance.
Jesus said: "Clean up your own act before you start pointing fingers."
Gore is an American.
What?
quote:
China have their own environmentalists.
From the numbers I see coming out of China let be the first to tell you that they are, obviously, rather ineffective.
quote:
Yes, and that's because there are a lot of politicians and corporate owners who stand to profit from the controversy.
On both sides of the issue.
quote:
What is the Neo-Con talking points on MMGW?
Many don't buy it.
quote:
Why are the White House still trying to downplay the threat of MMGW
They didn't tell me.
quote:
despite the overwhelming evidence?
What evidence?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 05:24:43 [Permalink]
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Report: China Will Pass U.S. As Polluter
"In the past couple of months, economic growth and related coal consumption has grown at such an unexpected rate," Birol was quoted as saying. China's rising emissions will effectively cancel out attempts by other countries to reduce their own, he said.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 06:59:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill Scott:
What evidence?
Bill, do you know how tiresome this is? I provided you sourced evidence way back on page 2 of this thread with an offer to get you more if needed. You said you would be responding to that soon. But you didn't. I think Dr.Mabuse would be crazy to spend any time providing you evidence just so you can ignore it. It's a total waste of time…
I take it that you are concerned about the environment. You also obviously take the minority view with a very few scientists who do not agree with the consensus of the scientific community, and many if not most conservative politicians and pundants about the cause of GW. You take the same view our government has taken, which conveniently protects industries that happen to be the largest contributors of CO2 in the atmosphere.
And yet you seem to care about China's coal burning power plants that, if the minority view is correct, poses no danger in contributing to global warming.
I suspect that the real danger you see in China's industrialization is that China has the potential to rival the US as an economic powerhouse that would threaten our position as top dog and all of the influence that goes with it. That too is a conservative view. Coincidence? Conservative pundants go on and on about China.
In this debate, you have just reframed the China issue as an environmental one, in terms of global warming, as a matter of convenience because it would make you happy if, for any reason, even one you do not agree with, we could make the China problem go away.
Or perhaps I am just giving you too much credit for thinking this out. (Really, the conservative pundants have already done that for you.)
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Political hacks water down global warming report
