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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2007 : 18:25:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Although it has been mis-reported that he was involuntarily committed, it was in fact voluntary treatment.
Got evidence for that? Last I heard, he volunteered to be examined by a police psychologist after one of the "stalking" incidents, and on the basis of that examination, was involuntarily held for less than 72 hours for observation on magistrate's orders, and finally ordered to seek outpatient treatment, which he never went to.quote:
I just found the speculation of how he graduated HS rather misplaced.
The question is this: how does a person who hardly ever speaks and whose writing is described by English professors as "juvenile" get accepted to a far from run-of-the-mill school like Virginia Tech? Given what I've seen of the college admissions process, good grades and even a spotless SAT aren't good enough. Being "trombone boy" might have helped, but I sorta doubt it. Schools look to create diverse communities of interacting students, so one would think that quiet loners would need more than good test scores and a fat wallet.quote:
Since so many mental illnesses (which Cho fits the symptoms for) manifest themselves later in adolescence or in early adulthood, and because so many of those illnesses can fluxuate in their severity, and because mental illness can be so difficult to diagnose and unique to each individual, I think it is silly to wonder how this guy got as far as he did in society.
marf, assume that the guy had no mental illness, and then try to figure out how he got into Virginia Tech. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 20:35:20 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
Got evidence for that?
Dude and I already discussed this on page 4 of this thread. I thought that Cho had been involuntarily committed and Dude wrote: quote:
He had not been arrested. And his mental health hospitalization was one of those very temporary voluntary things. In FL two docs can hold you against your will for 72 hours for evaluation. If they keep you beyond that they need a court to be involved.
If Cho's doctors had insisted he be confined outside of the short term, against his will, he would have had a record that showed up on the background check. I'm pretty sure you have to be committed against your will for this kind of thing to show up on a background check.
If the girl who called the cops on him for stalking had pressed charges, had him arrested, he would have failed the background checks.
Dave also wrote: quote:
The question is this: how does a person who hardly ever speaks and whose writing is described by English professors as "juvenile" get accepted to a far from run-of-the-mill school like Virginia Tech? Given what I've seen of the college admissions process, good grades and even a spotless SAT aren't good enough. Being "trombone boy" might have helped, but I sorta doubt it. Schools look to create diverse communities of interacting students, so one would think that quiet loners would need more than good test scores and a fat wallet.
and quote:
marf, assume that the guy had no mental illness, and then try to figure out how he got into Virginia Tech.
Forgive me, but I no longer understand what your point is. Are you saying that Cho got in to VA Tech because of a fat wallet? Or are you saying that his getting in is a mystery? Or what else? And as for the assuming he had no mental illness - huh? I'm assuming the guy got through HS and into VA Tech because his qualifications in general were good enough and any mental problems he may or may not have had did not interfere with his academic performance enough to fail or disqualify him. What other explanation is there? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 20:44:11 [Permalink]
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Also, his not speaking may not have seen totally abnormal to American teachers given his ethnicity. Many people who learn English as a second language tend not to speak much, as they are embarrassed about their accent. Also, whether it's actually true or not, I think most Asians are perceived as being generally silent (or at least less talkative) as a culture.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 21:49:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dude and I already discussed this on page 4 of this thread. I thought that Cho had been involuntarily committed and Dude wrote:
Yes, I know that. I see nothing about voluntary treatment in there. And all three of us posted links to news items, none of which state that he was ever treated for any mental illness, voluntarily or not. Just because he was not involutarily committed doesn't mean he volunteered for treatment.quote:
Forgive me, but I no longer understand what your point is. Are you saying that Cho got in to VA Tech because of a fat wallet? Or are you saying that his getting in is a mystery? Or what else?
Obviously, I'm not communicating well...quote:
And as for the assuming he had no mental illness - huh?
I was asking you to stop assuming that I'm suggesting that he shouldn't have been admitted to VA Tech because of mental illness.quote:
I'm assuming the guy got through HS and into VA Tech because his qualifications in general were good enough and any mental problems he may or may not have had did not interfere with his academic performance enough to fail or disqualify him. What other explanation is there?
That's precisely my question. It's been the case, since I was in high school, that colleges look at more than just academic performance when vetting potential students. If I'm examining candidates for VA Tech, I'm looking for more than a 4.0 GPA, school band, and a "juvenile" essay on the application in order to build a diverse, vibrant student community. What qualifications did Cho have that we don't know about that made him better than 14,000 other applicants? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 02:02:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
.....Forgive me, but I no longer understand what your point is. Are you saying that Cho got in to VA Tech because of a fat wallet? Or are you saying that his getting in is a mystery? Or what else? And as for the assuming he had no mental illness - huh? I'm assuming the guy got through HS and into VA Tech because his qualifications in general were good enough and any mental problems he may or may not have had did not interfere with his academic performance enough to fail or disqualify him. What other explanation is there?
Cho Seung-Hui's Commitment Papers, from Slate.com.
Most thorough discussion I've seen on his college admission that doesn't add in unknown speculation.
Discussion of the limits of the admission process to detect people like Cho
I don't know how accurate this is but I saw something similar in another source as well. Cho's intellect landed him in honors courses in high school but his neurosis was overlooked.
I think people are having a hard time grasping how one can be intelligent and schizophrenic at the same time but it is actually very common. It's like part of the brain is messed up but not every part. It isn't that everything going in and coming out is mixed up. In the case of the writings in the English class that were disturbing, there are two possibilities. One is he just got a whole lot worse then. But the more likely explanation is those were the assignments that asked Cho to say what he was thinking. Other classes in high school and college both, ask you to show that you learned something the class curriculum directs.
I have met more than one very intelligent schizophrenic. It's hard to explain someone who is intelligent but accepts the delusions as real rather than intellectualizing they are a problem. In other words there is no insight that some of the thoughts are delusions. Normal brain function is going along unaware that errors are being inputted along with the correct stuff. The delusions are often limited to certain themes. So they are smart, but perhaps believe the FBI is spying on them and putting radio signals into their head. Even though they are intelligent, that FBI thing is real to them and no amount of explaining to the person it isn't real changes that belief. But they can do the math just fine. Other than crazy thoughts about the FBI, homework and tests and reading comprehension and so on are normal.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/29/2007 02:04:16 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 06:25:36 [Permalink]
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Bgal - thanks for posting those links. I found the second link - about how Cho got into VA Tech - to be especially enlightening. From the article: quote:
The university says it seeks students with at least a B+ average. Here's the school's profile of the average freshman and his grades and test scores:
Average GPA: 3.80 Mid-50% GPA*: 3.54-4.01
Average SAT: 1231
Mid-50% SAT**: 1130-1330
(The SAT scores reflect the critical reading and math sections of the exam only.)
Virginia Tech makes its admission decisions purely and entirely on the basis of those numbers.
So it seems that Cho's poor juvenile writing skills and quietness didn't really matter very much.
In general I've often thought colleges take too narrow a view of students when reviewing for admissions. Too much emphasis is put on grades and test scores. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 06:37:38 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
Yes, I know that. I see nothing about voluntary treatment in there. And all three of us posted links to news items, none of which state that he was ever treated for any mental illness, voluntarily or not. Just because he was not involutarily committed doesn't mean he volunteered for treatment.
I suggest that we might be splitting hairs here. My only point was that while there were signs that the guy was seriously mentally ill, he was also highly functional, and therefore I don't question how he managed to accomplish all the things he accomplished up until this horrible event.
quote:
I was asking you to stop assuming that I'm suggesting that he shouldn't have been admitted to VA Tech because of mental illness.
I must not be communicating well either then because I never assumed that you suggested that he shouldn't be admitted to VA Tech because of mental illness. I only thought that the symptoms that you cited (not speaking and juvenile writing) as reasons why it might have been difficult for him to finish HS were not severe enough to warrant that speculation. You suggested that if his HS had taken a different educational approach (small groups, more interaction) Cho would have done a lot less well in school. And my problem with that was that there are other students who have similar difficulties and symptoms, but who are not dangerous to others, who benefit greatly from a system that values their other strengths.
I guess I'm saying that I don't think all kids can grow up to be well-rounded. Some, due to natural limitations, are always going to perform poorly at a few things. And while schools should provide opportunities and personalized instruction in all subjects, if a student simply can't get beyond rudimentary performance in one or a few areas, they shouldn't be prevented from receiving a HS degree.
quote:
What qualifications did Cho have that we don't know about that made him better than 14,000 other applicants?
If the article posted by bgal is correct, we can assume Cho simply had high numbers, and that alone explains how he got into VA Tech.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 08:33:54 [Permalink]
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Other points conceeded.quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
If the article posted by bgal is correct, we can assume Cho simply had high numbers, and that alone explains how he got into VA Tech.
Well, if the article is correct, the we need assume nothing. However, I have a hard time reconciling the author's statement that admissions decisions are based "purely and entirely" upon GPA and SAT, when he goes on to quote VA Tech's website (the page I linked to) where it discusses other factors considered during the admissions process, including the optional personal statements. He continues,As a first-generation Korean-American and Virginia resident, Cho had a couple of advantages right out of the gate. And then he goes on criticize the process once again:So add this to the long list of questions about how Seung Cho got to do what he did: Why does one of Virginia's premier state colleges not spend the marginal extra money it would take to hire a few more admissions officers so that it can use a more probing application and seek teacher recommendations and personal essays to get a fuller picture of the students it is admitting? There are, luckily, only a tiny number of Seung Chos in any applicant pool, but every student is more than the numbers provided by SAT scores and GPA rankings. Any college, no matter its size, ought to want to see other facets of its applicants' lives. VA Tech's admissions process seems to be at odds with its stated admission goals. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2007 : 09:34:17 [Permalink]
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I think that the practical need to put warm bodies behind desks might have trumped the high-sounding phrasing. The guy was quiet and reasonably intelligent, and seemingly unlikely to cause any problems beyond the usual. And being a minority is also a plus. So, he's in.
Academia is little different from any other part of our society; only a little less noisy and with slightly more vicious politics -- and don't tell my brother I said that.... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/29/2007 09:36:41 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 16:35:03 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote: quote:
VA Tech's admissions process seems to be at odds with its stated admission goals.
I totally agree. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 02:16:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Dave wrote: quote:
VA Tech's admissions process seems to be at odds with its stated admission goals.
I totally agree.
I don't agree. There was speculation by the reporter but nothing else in the way of evidence about Cho's actual admission.
Since my son just went through his college admission process and we looked at a fair number of data sources with the percent of applicants accepted, broken down by GPAs and SAT scores, I think those of you who believe Cho must have gotten in to VA tech by means other than actually being qualified, are wrong. Filthy even implied some kind of affirmative action was involved. I believe that has been challenged and at least quotas are not allowed as admission criteria. In addition, Asians are not seen as discriminated against in universities to my knowledge. I believe they have higher per capita admission rates than whites.
From the university's web site:
What We Look For: Freshmenquote:
Every year, approximately 19,000 people apply to be among 5,000 entering freshmen. To be considered, you must present a strong GPA (A/B+ average preferred) and competitive test scores. Below are some general requirements for admission to Virginia Tech.
Fall 2006 Freshman Offers at a Glance
Average GPA: 3.80
Mid-50% GPA*: 3.54–4.01
Average SAT: 1231
Mid-50% SAT**: 1130–1330
(SAT scores reflect critical reading and math section scores only)
*This means that 25% of freshmen offered admission to Virginia Tech had below a 3.54 GPA and 25% of freshmen offered admission had above a 4.01 GPA.
**This means that 25% of freshmen offered admission to Virginia Tech scored below 1130 on the SAT (combined critical reading and math) and 25% of freshmen offered admission scored above 1330 on the SAT (combined critical reading and math).
Elsewhere on the VA Tech web site:
quote:
Receiving the highest-ever number of freshman applications—19,046 for fall 2006 admission (eight percent higher than the 17,687 applications for fall 2005)—Virginia Tech expects to enroll about 5,000 first-year students this fall when classes begin Monday, August 21.
Students who accepted the offer of admission will come to campus with an average high school grade point average (GPA) of 3.74 (with a middle 50 percent of 3.38 to 3.95 GPA), up from 3.72 last year. The average freshman's combined math and critical reading SAT score was 1201, two points less than last year's 1203 (following a nationwide trend of SAT scores slightly more than five points lower). Virginia Tech considers the math and critical reading scores, though the writing score may be used for placement if a student is admitted. Average grades and scores for students who were offered admission were: 3.80 GPA (middle 50 percent 3.54 to 4.01 GPA) and a combined critical reading and math SAT score of 1231 (middle 50 percent of 1130 to 1330).
More than 100 entering students were valedictorians or salutatorians of their high school classes. Of freshmen offered admission, 97 percent scored higher than 500 on the math portion of the SA |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/30/2007 02:22:40 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 03:35:11 [Permalink]
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bgal wrote: quote:
I think those of you who believe Cho must have gotten in to VA tech by means other than actually being qualified, are wrong.
Just for the record, saying that VA Tech's admissions process seem to be at odds with its stated admission goals is not the same as saying that Cho got in without being qualified. I don't think anyone who gets in isn't qualified. But I imagine a huge number of very qualified people don't get in, and how the decisions are actually made does not seem to match up with the stated goals. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 06:25:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Maybe I'm missing something in the discussion here.
I think that marf understood what she was agreeing with because she wasn't ignoring half of the discussion. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 06:40:24 [Permalink]
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Poor wording on my part, I think. It happens...
I never implied that Cho wasn't qualified. I'm sure his grades and all were sufficent. But perhaps he was selected as the least of several evils, and that desk needed filling. The racial part is something of a hold-over from the quotas system that is all but knee-jerk with some administrators.
Having never been, I don't know much about college admission but it seems to me that he should have been checked out a little more thourghly.
And now that the horse is gone, let's bolt the door....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/30/2007 06:43:08 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 12:16:17 [Permalink]
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Barn door, horse, bolt: Well better late than never, I suppose. I don't know if this will be as effective as NC's law but it's certainly an improvement. quote:
Virginia Governor Closes Gun Loophole
Email this Story
Apr 30, 12:05 PM (ET)
By BOB LEWIS
(AP) A baseball fan pauses to look at a display signed by Boston College students in memory of people...
Full Image
RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - The governor said Monday he has closed the loophole that allowed a mentally disturbed Virginia Tech student to acquire the guns he used to kill 32 students and faculty members.
Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people who are prohibited from buying guns include anyone found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.
Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered by a court to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.
But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court finding never made it into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a firearm. The law prohibits selling firearms to people judged to have mental disabilities.
And on a related matter, here we have yet more conformation of just how loathsome too many on the religious right can be: quote:
Religious right uses victims of VA Tech massacre to slam gays, use Christ as political prop
by John Aravosis (DC) · 4/30/2007 12:38:00 PM ET
Discuss this post here: Comments (119) · digg it · reddit · FARK · · Link
Special place in hell for these homophobes. Ex-"American Family Association" attorney Joe Murray rips the religious right for their un-Christian level of hate. Joe's article is brilliant and difficult to excerpt, so here's a large chunk - read the entire thing:
A few weeks back, writing on the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007 (LLEHCPA), a measure that would expand existing federal hate crimes law to include classes such as sexual orientation, gender and gender identity, this author noted that the type of debate emanating from those organizations laying claim to Christian morality was quite disturbing.
Specifically, concern was raised about the tone of the debate. Christian groups were sending out "action alerts" scaring supporters into believing that passage of the hate crimes bill, a piece of legislation that has clear First Amendment safeguards, would result in preachers arrested from the pulpit and Christians shipped off for an indefinite stay at the Hanoi Hilton....
Just when it was thought that the hate crimes debate had hit rock bottom, some pro-family organizations opted to capitalize on tragedy and politicize the deadly shootings at Virginia Tech to score political points.
"Under this legislation, the crimes at Virginia Tech, which some are calling one of the deadliest rampages in U.S. history, would not be punishable to the level of these so-called 'hate-crimes'," wrote Tony Perkins, President of the Family Research Council (FRC), in an email alert sent out to FRC supporters. Perkins' analysis, however, was far from over.
Explaining why the hate crimes bill is not good for America, Perkins wrote, "If the House approves H.R. 1592 and the Senate follows, a homosexual would have more federal protection under the law than the 32 victims of last week's massacre."
Words cannot describe how disheartening such a comment, from a man who champions the values of Christianity, is.
While parents, siblings, students and staff mourned the senseless killings of 32 members of the Virginia Tech community, Perkins thought it was an opportune time, and perhaps even an exercise of his Christian duty, to exploit the tragic situation to aid in the manufacturing of a "homosexual agenda." This is not only degrading to Virginia Tech and to the gay community, it clearly prostitutes any notion of family values.
It almost makes me wish to believe in the existence of a just and pissed-off God. Flaming Gehenna is barely good enough such scum as Tony Perkins.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Baghdad Tech Massacre
