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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:08:34 [Permalink]
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| I blame the evilutionists. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:09:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
If the shooter hadn't had access to the gun, but had to resort to beating people to death with a baseball bat, the number of casualties would have been much lower before someone stopped him, or he had to stop to catch his breath.
But he also could have run over huge swaths of people in his car and done more damage. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:16:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
If the shooter hadn't had access to the gun, but had to resort to beating people to death with a baseball bat, the number of casualties would have been much lower before someone stopped him, or he had to stop to catch his breath.
True.
If he had, for example, pulled this in any class I have attended for the last couple of years... he'd not have had the chance (assuming he didn't kill me before I could react) to kill anyone else.
But this is reality. If you want a gun, you can get one. Laws don't prevent you from buying one on the street. (a point I proved not to long ago to one of my coworkers who didn't believe I could buy a gun in the time it takes to drive home from work.) If you ban all guns, then only the criminals and deliberate lawbreakers will have them. There are hundreds of millions of guns just in the US. From a pure logistics point, a ban would be impossible anyway.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:22:10 [Permalink]
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Cune said:
quote:
But he also could have run over huge swaths of people in his car and done more damage.
Exactly.
If you want to go on a killing spree, guns are not even the best option really.
You go to the hardware store, get some 1ft pipes with screw on ends, pack them tight with black powder, drill a hole for a fuse.... and kaboom.
You steal a big ass Dodge truck, drive around campus and run people over for 15 minutes. At lunch time outside the student union of an average university you can probably easily take out 100 people.
I can probably rattle off a dozen more ways to commit mass murder that don't involve a handgun, or any gun, ways that up your kill count from what is possible with a gun.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/17/2007 17:23:23 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 19:28:09 [Permalink]
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Great news. The guy was from my area. Went to the same high school as the guy who shot up my local police station last year, killing two cops.
Was "the high school churns out psychopaths" on the list of things being blamed?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 19:52:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Cune said:
quote:
But he also could have run over huge swaths of people in his car and done more damage.
Exactly.
If you want to go on a killing spree, guns are not even the best option really.
You go to the hardware store, get some 1ft pipes with screw on ends, pack them tight with black powder, drill a hole for a fuse.... and kaboom.
You steal a big ass Dodge truck, drive around campus and run people over for 15 minutes. At lunch time outside the student union of an average university you can probably easily take out 100 people.
I can probably rattle off a dozen more ways to commit mass murder that don't involve a handgun, or any gun, ways that up your kill count from what is possible with a gun.
Interesting. Well, I guess mass murderers are just not thinking things through correctly. I mean, this was the deadliest mass murder by a single person in US history.
The runner up is Luby's massacre in which a guy shot and killed 23 people at Luby's Cafeteria in Texas.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:07:24 [Permalink]
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Deadliest mass shooting.
Well, if you're going to tack on the "by a single person" qualifier, it's also the deadliest mass murder.
But Oklahoma City was certainly deadlier, just not a shooting and not done by one person. Each of the four airliners on 9/11 by themselves contained more murder victims than Virginia Tech had.
Whoops. The Happy Land arson seems to be the largest mass murder by a single person in the US history. And all it took was some gasoline and a lighter or match. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:19:22 [Permalink]
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Guns are extremely effective instuments of murder (which is all they are designed for), which is why they are still the bread-and-butter of any military force. When guns are a problem in society, I fail to see how the solution can be "more guns."
Guns do not make you safer. On the contrary, if you are the owner of a firearm, you are 4 times more likely to be involved in a fatal shooting yourself.
Are there other ways to kill people than guns? Yes. Are they as easy to obtain, conceal, or use with such lethal effectiveness as guns? Not by a long shot.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/17/2007 20:20:23 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:52:56 [Permalink]
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According to Wikipedia:
Top three single-person non-firearm mass murders in the US:Happy Land Arson fried 87.
Bath School Disasters, 45 blown up.
Jack Graham blew up 44. Total: 176 deaths.
Top three single-person firearm-related mass murders in the US:Flight 1771, 2 shot pilots, 43 dead.
Virginia Tech, 32 shot.
Luby's Massacre, 23 shot. Total: 98 deaths.
Of course, there are a lot more firearm-related mass killings than there are non-firearm related mass killings. And the number of firearm incidents where the total number of victims is one are huge compared to explosions, poisonings and arsons (but not larger than stabbings, if I remember the Justice Department statistics correctly).
The point is that if the perpetrators of a lot of these firearms massacres had given some extra thought to what they were doing, the body count could have been a lot higher. The guy at VA Tech probably could have strolled into a single Chem 101 lecture hall with a small(ish) bomb and killed over 100, but instead he chose to go with bullets. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 21:06:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
The point is that if the perpetrators of a lot of these firearms massacres had given some extra thought to what they were doing, the body count could have been a lot higher. The guy at VA Tech probably could have strolled into a single Chem 101 lecture hall with a small(ish) bomb and killed over 100, but instead he chose to go with bullets.
Right. That's always been the argument against easy gun access. It prevents rash acts of violence. That's why laws mandating things like waiting periods have been instituted in many places.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 21:48:29 [Permalink]
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I really don't have any opinions on gun control or lack thereof, as I am not the conservative proud of guns, nor am I the normal liberal that is anti-guns either. I figure people will find a way to kill each other regardless if they are really set on it and guns are one way some people go about doing such.
But I think Americans tend to focus on the fault of incidents such as these and forget people were involved and they really need our support more than anything. Just like with Hurricane Katrina, the people who always focus on other issues for political gain annoy me to death. And no, it's not just Bush either. I've seen both sides playing their hearts out on this issue for nothing other than political gain.
The focus should really be keeping the students at VaTech in our thoughts/prayers/etc. I am hoping that Texas Tech will do something for the students there that will let them know we are thinking/praying about them. I know if I were in a situation like that, it would be nice to know there are others out there that do care, not just people screaming over who or what is at fault for all of it.
tk |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 22:35:06 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
Are there other ways to kill people than guns? Yes. Are they as easy to obtain, conceal, or use with such lethal effectiveness as guns? Not by a long shot.
Are you seriously suggesting that I coudn't carry out a mass murder by vehicle with ease. More so than with a firearm?
Because it is WAY easier to get a vehicle. There is no need to conceal it. And I could easily take out over 100 people on an average day outside the student union of my local university at lunchtime before being stopped. Or in the parking lot and crosswalks just after the end of 2pm or 5pm classes. Just imagine the carnage you could inflict with a Hummer on a nice spring day if there were some event on the drill field at Vtech. Only Ricky would survive.
Because I could chain the doors to a building and set it on fire. I don't need to conceal anything, because nothing you need to burn down a building is illegal or controlled.
No offense H.H., but such a claim is easily destroyed by minimal application of common sense.
Because, lets see.... to buy handguns legally you have a waiting period of three days most places (in FL you can be exempt from that if you have a concealed carry permit), you have to produce identification, and you have to hang out for a background check to be completed.
To get my hands on a Hummer, I walk into a rental agency with a credit card and drive out 30 minutes later.
To get ligher fluid and a box of matches I just walk into the grocery store and pay $3.
If I wanted to go on a premeditated killing spree, guns wouldn't figure into the main method of destruction at all.
Because they are inefficient, hard to obtain, and cannot exert the level of lethal force of a vehicl, fire, or a couple of IEDs.
Not that I would ever consider actually doing any such thing. Just trying to illustrate that the continued outcry against guns is nothing but a failure to think beyond the emotional impact of tragedy.
quote:
Guns do not make you safer. On the contrary, if you are the owner of a firearm, you are 4 times more likely to be involved in a fatal shooting yourself.
Source?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 22:48:53 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
quote:
Interesting. Well, I guess mass murderers are just not thinking things through correctly. I mean, this was the deadliest mass murder by a single person in US history.
The runner up is Luby's massacre in which a guy shot and killed 23 people at Luby's Cafeteria in Texas.
The point, Kil, is that guns are not the most effective means of killing people if you are a single person or a small group bent on destruction.
FFS, you could just poison the koolaide... I mean, you could easily murder about 900 people with that method.
Or, as has been pointed out, you could fly a plane into a building, or pack your truck with explosives.
Motor vehicle accidents kill more people every year than people with guns do. So lets ban cars!!
Drunk driving kills some insane number of people (around 14K) every year. So lets ban Beer!
Think of the tens of thousands of lives we'd save, every year, from being snuffed out if we banned beer and cars!
Because those inanimate objects HAVE to accept the responsibility for the tragedy they inflict! The people drinking them or driving them obviously have nothing to do with these deaths.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 22:51:32 [Permalink]
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so....
DOWN WITH CARS!
DOWN WITH BEER!
DOWN WITH ALL INANIMATE OBJECTS THAT CAN HURT PEOPLE WHEN OTHER PEOPLE TOUCH THEM!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 22:58:38 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
quote:
The runner up is Luby's massacre in which a guy shot and killed 23 people at Luby's Cafeteria in Texas.
An incident in which the law abiding people had their firearms legally stowed in their vehicles.
If the current TX carry laws were in effect then, the death toll in that cafeteria would have been far far lower.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Baghdad Tech Massacre
