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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 23:12:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Are you seriously suggesting that I coudn't carry out a mass murder by vehicle with ease. More so than with a firearm?
How portable is a car, Dude? You going to get one inside a courthouse? A mall? A place of work? What's easier to get out of the way of, an oncoming car or a bullet?
quote:
Because it is WAY easier to get a vehicle.
And it isn't easy to get a gun? Weren't you the one bragging that you could obtain one in the time it took to drive home from work?
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There is no need to conceal it. And I could easily take out over 100 people on an average day outside the student union of my local university at lunchtime before being stopped. Or in the parking lot and crosswalks just after the end of 2pm or 5pm classes. Just imagine the carnage you could inflict with a Hummer on a nice spring day if there were some event on the drill field at Vtech. Only Ricky would survive.
Actually, as Ricky's example indicates, "taking someone out" with a car isn't necessarily a guaranteed fatality. Not like putting a bullet in somebody's brain.
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Because I could chain the doors to a building and set it on fire. I don't need to conceal anything, because nothing you need to burn down a building is illegal or controlled.
Locking the facility and spreading a propellent (however legal) takes time to properly set up and execute. While fires have the potential to claim more lives under "ideal" circumstances, to argue that it's a more efficient killing method is hilariously stupid.
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No offense H.H., but such a claim is easily destroyed by minimal application of common sense.
Right, so feel free to start applying some common sense at any point in this discussion, Dude.
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Because, lets see.... to buy handguns legally you have a waiting period of three days most places (in FL you can be exempt from that if you have a concealed carry permit), you have to produce identification, and you have to hang out for a background check to be completed.
When murder is the objective, why limit yourself to legal methods?
quote:
To get my hands on a Hummer, I walk into a rental agency with a credit card and drive out 30 minutes later.
To get ligher fluid and a box of matches I just walk into the grocery store and pay $3.
If I wanted to go on a premeditated killing spree, guns wouldn't figure into the main method of destruction at all.
Well, then I guess mass murderers just ain't as smart as you, Dude, since most seem to use guns. If gasoline fires ever becomes the preferred method, I guess you might have point.
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Because they are inefficient, hard to obtain, and cannot exert the level of lethal force of a vehicl, fire, or a couple of IEDs.
Not that I would ever consider actually doing any such thing. Just trying to illustrate that the continued outcry against guns is nothing but a failure to think beyond the emotional impact of tragedy.
Uh, no. It would be because guns are seemingly always involved. All the fantasies you can dream up about match-wielding mass murderers won't draw attention away from gun problem which actually has an impact now.
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quote:
Guns do not make you safer. On the contrary, if you are the owner of a firearm, you are 4 times more likely to be involved in a fatal shooting yourself.
Source?
Sorry, this source lists the figure as only three times more likely.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 02:49:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by JohnOAS
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
So far we have the blame going toabortion (parent of a Columbine victim) the ban on school prayer (multiple sites) homosexuals (Phelps' usual rant) evil (for whatever reason God doesn't interfere) God (for reasons unknown, not punishment as claimed by Phelps, et al., and because obviously he controls these things) the university for not warning people and/or closing the campus down the police for not assuming a murder in a dorm meant a madman was possibly on his way to a shooting rampage lack of mental health care for various reasons (can't force it on someone, not available, no one took action to help shooter get it)
Did I leave anything/one out?
How about:
* The shooters parents
* Drugs
* The shooters boyfriend/girlfriend
* The shooters potential boyfriend/girlfriend
* The education system
* Engrams
I totally forgot to add video games and TV.
And someone on JREF has now mentioned lack of national health insurance because the guy might have been spotted by his doctor if he had one.
I'll wait a day and revise the list.
Edited to add:
Foreign students (even though this guy had been here since he was 8)
Chemicals in your food (talk radio, Air America, the Tom Malloy show)
and from Olbermann's worst people in the world, the wimpy men who didn't rush the guy.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/18/2007 02:50:01 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 02:54:53 [Permalink]
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From the information coming out, this guy had a blazing sign out saying, "warning". The police were notified by the shooter's roommates for stalking girls and by the English department chair for writing about killing people.
We don't need more armed people, we need the police to take these reports more seriously and laws that allow them to actually do something before a crime is committed. Or at least something allowing mental health professionals more authority to evaluate and act when needed.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2007 : 02:59:04 [Permalink]
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With my NC concealed carry permit, I can obtain a legal firearm of any sort other than a machine gun in about 15 minutes, the time it takes to fill out a simple form. On the other hand, I have had a background check as stringent as that for a security clearance. Due to reciprocal agreements, I can do this in some 21 states. It is not easy to get this ticket and not at all difficult to lose it.
And yes, I have an assault rifle; a civilian-version AK-47. It's a lot of fun on the range.
I've read that the serial numbers had been ground off the two pistols carried by this lunatic, implying that they had been stolen either by him or a third party(s) that sold them to him. I will see if I can find that source again.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/18/2007 03:00:35 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 06:52:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Right. That's always been the argument against easy gun access. It prevents rash acts of violence. That's why laws mandating things like waiting periods have been instituted in many places.
And Cho's spree at VA Tech wasn't a rash act.Seung-Hui Cho bought his first gun, a Glock 9 mm handgun, on March 13 and his second weapon, a .22 caliber handgun, within the last week, law enforcement officials tell ABCNews.com.
"This was no spur of the moment crime. He's been thinking about this since at least the time he bought the first gun," said former FBI agent Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant.
- The Blotter So it appears he just wasn't thinking about how to kill lots and lots of people. With over a month of planning, one could have had a much larger body count by using something other than a couple of firearms. Some kids were able to prevent him from killing them simply by blocking the classroom doors.
Why did he stop killing? Had all the other doors been blocked? He wasn't out of ammo. Had he killed "enough?" The guy at Luby's ran out of victims, thanks to a guy who broke a window and got other diners out. Seems his firearms didn't work well without being able to see the potential targets. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 07:31:42 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
quote:
What's easier to get out of the way of, an oncoming car or a bullet?
Reality isn't hollywood. You can't dodge either one if someone bent on killing you is at the trigger or wheel.
quote:
And it isn't easy to get a gun? Weren't you the one bragging that you could obtain one in the time it took to drive home from work?
The holes in your thinking here are big enough to drive a truck through. I don't know what fantasy world you live in where it is "easier" to obtain a gun than a car, but in this world you have it backwards. It is embarrasing that you would try to defend that position.
quote:
Actually, as Ricky's example indicates, "taking someone out" with a car isn't necessarily a guaranteed fatality. Not like putting a bullet in somebody's brain.
As a medical professional employed in a large trauma center, let me assure you that in car vs pedestrian, it is a rare case when the pedestrian comes away unharmed(as in Ricky's case). The human body is amazingly resilient, but it simply does not survive being run down, at speed, by a vehicle. Anything much over 25-30MPH is going to cause devastating injuries that you would be unlikely to live through.
And, once again, this isn't hollywood. Guns are not a guaranteed kill either, especially little 9mm and .22, or even the dreaded .38 saturday night special. Obviously they can be fatal, but there is no absolute guarantee of getting a kill, even with a head shot, from small caliber handguns.
quote:
Locking the facility and spreading a propellent (however legal) takes time to properly set up and execute. While fires have the potential to claim more lives under "ideal" circumstances, to argue that it's a more efficient killing method is hilariously stupid.
Please, continue to embarrass yourself. You chain the doors to a dorm at 3am, set the building on fire. You'd kill way more people than if you walked in with 2 pistols and started blasting. It is hilariously stupid to claim that fire is a less effective method of killing people than pistols.
quote:
When murder is the objective, why limit yourself to legal methods?
Obviously, to prevent yourself from being arrested before you do the deed.
quote:
Well, then I guess mass murderers just ain't as smart as you, Dude, since most seem to use guns. If gasoline fires ever becomes the preferred method, I guess you might have point.
Actually, your totally wrong. The most effective mass murderers use fire and improvised explosive devices.
quote:
Uh, no. It would be because guns are seemingly always involved. All the fantasies you can dream up about match-wielding mass murderers won't draw attention away from gun problem which actually has an impact now.
Most murders are carried out by someone known to the victim. Killing, most often, is a very personal thing. Guns are the tool of choice many times because they are effiecient at the task.
More people are stabbed than shot every year here in the US though.
The problem isn't guns, it is the inability of people to control themselves.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 04/18/2007 07:32:54 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 07:57:15 [Permalink]
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Dude, since humans(as a whole)have never shown the ability to control themselves, your arguement is nothing but sad apologetics. There may be more stabbings, but far more die from gun shot wounds. In fact the percentages for guns deaths has increased steadily to over 50% of murders (10K+ annually) and stabbings have fallen to less than 20% of murders. (In the US)
Guns arent going to go away, ever. But to claim that the current state of regulation is adequate* is a joke.
*Claim inferred from your defense of every anti-gun statement no matter the validity.
Edit: Source FBI |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 04/18/2007 07:57:48 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 08:22:41 [Permalink]
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Couldn't find the place where I read about the serial numbers. It might have been in the comments on an article, which puts it's veracity in question. Indeed, if the serial numbers were missing, Cho might have ground them off himself, for who knows what reason.
Another question is: How exactly did this guy manage to keep firearms in a college dorm? You'd think that someone, sometime would have noticed, and then this wouldn't have happened because he'd have been locked up. Firearms of any sort are strictly forbidden on any educational venue except for security and law enforcement officers.
We'll know in due course, I suppose.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 08:42:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by the_ignored
quote:
Gotta love that arrogance; only xians like them can judge as to whether something is "good" or "evil"...
Wrong. God, as the creator of all that exists, is the only one who can define what is good and what is evil. Then we as the created, and subject to the creator, are judged by those standards.
Without a creator then evil, as Fility has put it, is simply in the eye of the beholder.
quote:
yet when one points out the atrocities of the OT god in killing off babies and pregnant women, people like these defend those actions!
God is the one who by his own freewill gives life, therefore, is the only one who can rightfully take that life back, as well. And the reality is that God calls everyone's life back to himself. The death rate is still 1:1 the last time I checked so relax, we are all going to make it. God would eventually have called the life back of these babies and pregnant women, anyway. What was cut short for them was time. All of our lives are going to be called back to God at some point in time, some just sooner then later.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/18/2007 08:49:49 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 08:43:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
The point, Kil, is that guns are not the most effective means of killing people if you are a single person or a small group bent on destruction.
What needs to be considered is the mindset of this kind of murderer. A Hummer (or any car) would not be a very good choice if suicide is part of the plan. And as near as I can tell, suicide in this kind of mass murder is part of the plan. Of course, there is suicide by cop, but that may not work out as planned.
Simple planning probably goes into this kind of murder. Nothing elaborate, since ultimately it is a crazed crime of passion of sorts. And there is the sick romantic notion of “blowing people away” that is probably more compelling to this kind of killer than either poison or a car or even a bomb that requires some set up time and even more thought.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but for a guy like the one who just shot up Virginia Tech, guns will continue to be the weapon of choice, I believe.
All of the better choices you have named assumes that the killer will reason things out to a degree that is unlikely. Sure they might work better, but they are not even on the radar of this kind of killer…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 10:03:18 [Permalink]
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The Bath School disaster |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 11:25:09 [Permalink]
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BPS said:
quote:
Dude, since humans(as a whole)have never shown the ability to control themselves, your arguement is nothing but sad apologetics. There may be more stabbings, but far more die from gun shot wounds. In fact the percentages for guns deaths has increased steadily to over 50% of murders (10K+ annually) and stabbings have fallen to less than 20% of murders. (In the US)
Guns arent going to go away, ever. But to claim that the current state of regulation is adequate* is a joke.
You must pass a criminal background check.
You can only purchase some semi-auto firearms.
For anything else you have to obtain a federal class 3 firearms license, which requires regular inspections of your storage facility and fees of thousands of dollars, say nothing of the exaustive background check.
Personally I have no problems with gun laws that make sense. Things like requiring people to obtain training in the use, storage, and laws regarding guns in their state, before buying.
I'd love to see the gun-show loophole eliminated by a federal law. Make all gun sales at the shows be in compliance with all state laws concerning the sale of firearms. It would lend some missing credibility to these events.
State and federal background checks are ok too. But these are already a law.
Parents held accountable for the actions of minors who get ahold of their firearms. Oh, wait, this is already a law in many states. It just isn't enforced often.
Strict laws for the use of firearms in criminal activity. Oh, wait, we already have those! In FL if you have a gun in your posession while you commit a crime, 10 years min sentence. Flash the gun, 20 years min sentence. Discharge it, 30 years min sentence. If you have a gun in your posession illegally (concealed with no permit, or you aren't allowed to own one) there are min sentence guidelines as well.
In FL, and probably other states as well, if you have ever been arrested for domestic violence (not convicted of a domestic crime, just arrested) you cannot buy or even legeally own a firearm.
But stupid ass laws that limit what type and kind of firearms you can buy, limit magazine size, and so on... are utterly useless in the prevention of murder.
The best way to lower murder rates, and all crime rates for that matter, is the relief of poverty.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 11:37:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
I'm not sure what the answer is, but for a guy like the one who just shot up Virginia Tech, guns will continue to be the weapon of choice, I believe.
All of the better choices you have named assumes that the killer will reason things out to a degree that is unlikely. Sure they might work better, but they are not even on the radar of this kind of killer…
There may be an argument in there that if guns weren't available, these sorts of killers would be forced to turn to explosives, arson and/or mass poisonings. If such is true, then the elimination of firearms may save lots of people from small crimes of passion - like the guy who snaps one night and shoots his neighbor - but the death toll from people intent on being mass murderers would conceivably go up. If - and the 'if' is important - that is the case, then easy access to firearms is currently reducing the number of dead, because the weapons these folks are using aren't designed for mass killings (and so aren't as efficient as other means), but they're easy enough to obtain that making a bomb (for example) seems like a lot of effort in comparison. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 15:01:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott:
Wrong. God, as the creator of all that exists, is the only one who can define what is good and what is evil. Then we as the created, and subject to the creator, are judged by those standards.
Without a creator then evil, as Fility has put it, is simply in the eye of the beholder.
God is the one who by his own freewill gives life, therefore, is the only one who can rightfully take that life back, as well. And the reality is that God calls everyone's life back to himself. The death rate is still 1:1 the last time I checked so relax, we are all going to make it. God would eventually have called the life back of these babies and pregnant women, anyway. What was cut short for them was time. All of our lives are going to be called back to God at some point in time, some just sooner then later.
Evidence please. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 15:38:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Scott:
Wrong. God, as the creator of all that exists, is the only one who can define what is good and what is evil. Then we as the created, and subject to the creator, are judged by those standards.
Without a creator then evil, as Fility has put it, is simply in the eye of the beholder.
God is the one who by his own freewill gives life, therefore, is the only one who can rightfully take that life back, as well. And the reality is that God calls everyone's life back to himself. The death rate is still 1:1 the last time I checked so relax, we are all going to make it. God would eventually have called the life back of these babies and pregnant women, anyway. What was cut short for them was time. All of our lives are going to be called back to God at some point in time, some just sooner then later.
Evidence please.
Sure
"Because evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, and by this time you should know better than to get me started on something like this." Filthy |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Baghdad Tech Massacre
