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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2007 : 01:45:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
In hindsight it seems that he was definitely a candidate for involuntary commitment to a mental health hospital.
But that's just my point. Doesn't this all reek of confirmation bias?
Again, I admit I have limited information on this guy at best, but the possibility of overreaction terrifies me.
Yes but with the exception it was probably clear this guy was losing it in the days if not weeks before he acted.
With some cases like this you have the worst combination. That is a person totally isolated so that no one sees the escalation. It's not that you couldn't have seen it coming with some lead time, it's that the last time someone looked was a year ago. For people not this isolated, they often do get committed before they act. Or at least before they go this far. But not always.
As to the mental illness Kil was looking for more information on, this was not the act of a Harris/Klebold getting even for perceived wrongs. Cho's two plays (they're posted at newsbloggers) and the material he sent to NBC are clear indications of paranoid schizophrenia. He has classic disorganized thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the same diagnosis isn't noted in his mental health record but that probably won't ever become public.
The news reporters aren't listening to the psychiatrists they are interviewing. The reporters are taking the information about the diagnosis like it's just another opinion. There actually is sufficient information in the material to make the diagnosis. If you look at the plays Cho wrote, the disorganized thought is classic.
Cho's plays
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/20/2007 01:50:45 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 05:14:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
If there is a baby lying on the railroad track with a train very soon arriving. I have the opportunity to save the baby. Am I not evil for just watching, allowing the child to be run over when I could easily have saved it?
I would expect you to pick it up.
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I, just as God, have during this scenario the same power over life and death as I can just let the baby's time expire.
In my opinion, allowing someone's life to expire when you can easily prevent it with a minimum amount of effort and without anyone suffering any detrimental effects is BAD. Bill scott, to me it looks like you think differently.
Here is where you are going astray, God and you do not have the same power over life and death. You might have the ability to save a life, such as a baby on the train tracks. Also, you have the ability to kill a life as well, such as placing a baby on some train tracks. But only God has the ability to create life where life previously did not exist, so therefor, as the giver of all life God has the rights and the justification to call that life back when he sees fit.
Also, your not looking at this with an eternal perspective. The ultimate question is not how much time will I have here on earth, but rather, where will I spend my eternal existence, with my creator, or separated from him?
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I think the idea of God deciding to allow someone's life to expire prematurely is horrific and evil,
Nope, rejecting the free gift of salvation offered by God and rather choosing to spend an eternity separated from him is horrific and evil.
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and I'm thankful that there is no evidence that God exists,
I'd check again.
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and hope that delusional people who believe in such a God one day gets to see the error of their ways.
Well the reality is is that if I my faith in God proves true then we will both know this in eternity. If your disbelief in God is true then you will never know this as after that last heartbeat it will be as if you have never existed at all.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/20/2007 05:32:25 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 05:48:07 [Permalink]
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What I want to know is, when I get to Hell, how will I know that Heaven even exists? Do I make a pit stop before I get there?
Also Bill, some of us dont mind the ending "as if you had never existed at all", as we are not obsessed with eternity. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 06:09:27 [Permalink]
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Cho's final victim..... quote:
If Cho Seung-Hui wanted to start a war, he could not have gone to a better place than Roanoke Firearms.
Five weeks ago, the 23-year-old foreign student entered the shop and paid $570 (£284) with a credit card for a Glock 9mm semi-automatic pistol and a box of 50 cartridges. He provided three different forms of identification and passed an additional security check carried out by the state police. The checks threw up no red flags. The entire transaction took no more than 20 minutes.
"I don't know anything about him. I just sold him the gun," the store's owner, John Markell, told The Independent, standing behind one of the store's glass display cases packed full of matt-black weapons. "He had a Virginia driving licence, a cheque book and a green card. Everything was legit - he checked out completely."
This gentleman is going to lose his business and probably his shirt, and spend a lot of time in civil court. I have no doubt that trial lawyers, from good ones to scumbag ambulance-chasers, are already drafting lawsuit papers and contacting families.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 06:11:12 [Permalink]
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Sounds like Hell is a place where there is no God - and therefore no religions or magical thinkers. In other words, Heaven for Atheists.
I can't wait!
Or maybe we are all living in Hell right now. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 06:38:45 [Permalink]
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Sounds like San Fran...
And Filthy, why exatcly would he be sued/shut down when he did nothing illegal? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 06:43:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Sounds like San Fran...
Which, Heaven for Atheists or Hell on Earth?  |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 07:09:49 [Permalink]
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| Both, depending on your perspective... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 08:39:38 [Permalink]
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quote:
Boron10:
Similarly, do you honestly think a teenager who writes dark poetry should be considered dangerous? Both of these would open the door for some very frightening situations.
I meant to comment on this earlier.
English teachers see a lot of dark writing from their students. And dark writing is age appropriate. Obviously, many of the kids in a writing class would be thought of with concern if simply writing dark were the criteria for concern. It isn't.
There is writing that stands out as disturbing beyond the norm. Key phrases may be used that set off alarms in a teacher well acquainted with subject matter often used by students. Remember that these teachers read a lot of papers. So a paper that rings their alarms has to be very special in some way. It has to be not just out of the ordinary, which may just be a sign of creativity on the part of the writer, but includes more disturbing passages that may signal a possible pathology.
It is not wrong or unethical for a teacher to pass a paper like that on to a counselor for further evaluation. The paper itself may or may not lead to a recommendation for a psychiatric evaluation. If it does, I don't see the harm because just being evaluated does not imply a condition that requires intervention. And it doesn't mean that anyone's rights would be violated. All the confidentiality rules that mental health care professionals go by as a matter of ethics would still be in place…
quote:
beskeptigal:
That English professor had it right when she said his plays indicated he was severely ill. A threat assessment team could have monitored him. The university could also have required he check in with someone like a counselor on a regular basis but they didn't have a system or plan to do that.
Right…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 08:56:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Sounds like San Fran...
And Filthy, why exatcly would he be sued/shut down when he did nothing illegal?
This would be civil court, not criminal. The argument: "He shoulda seen it!" can and has prevailed in civil court. Indeed, all bets are off there, and that is why a good, hard-working trial lawyer is usually a wealthy, hard-working trial lawyer.
I do hope Mr. Markell is insured to and beyond the eyeballs.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:02:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
quote:
What I want to know is, when I get to Hell, how will I know that Heaven even exists? Do I make a pit stop before I get there?
Can there be hell without heaven, up without down, left without right, sad without happy etc...
quote:
Also Bill, some of us dont mind the ending "as if you had never existed at all", as we are not obsessed with eternity.
That is rather self-evident. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:12:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Sounds like Hell is a place where there is no God -
I am not sure about that as God is omnipresent. What I am sure of is you will be separated from him and his grace, forever. You see, in this life, even as unbeliever, God still sheds his grace on you. He sends his rain on the just and the unjust. Not so in the ever after for the one without a pure and spotless champion who will advocate on their behalf
quote:
and therefore no religions or magical thinkers. In other words, Heaven for Atheists.
I can't wait!
An eternity of remorse and regret for rejecting the only one who could save you, all over some silly rebellious attitude towards, of all things, your creator. The one who gave you life in the first place. Sounds pretty foolish to me.
quote:
Or maybe we are all living in Hell right now.
For the Christian, yes. For the unregenerate, no.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:38:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am not sure about that as God is omnipresent. What I am sure of is you will be separated from him and his grace, forever. You see, in this life, even as unbeliever, God still sheds his grace on you. He sends his rain on the just and the unjust. Not so in the ever after for the one without a pure and spotless champion who will advocate on their behalf
For someone who isn't sure you make a lot of assertions of truth with nothing to back it up. Evidence please. I already know what if coming, but...
quote:
An eternity of remorse and regret for rejecting the only one who could save you, all over some silly rebellious attitude towards, of all things, your creator.
You make an assumption about my attitude. You are quite arrogant and self-righteous, which I'm sure your Saviour would frown upon (depending on the flavor of your religion, also assuming yours is the correct one out of the thousands that have existed).
quote:
For the Christian, yes. For the unregenerate, no.
Try being born as one of the unfortunate poor in Africa, who die of disease and starvation before even having a childhood. What arrogance!
As a christian, what exactly are you doing to obey your saviour's commandment to help them? Remember your Global Warming discussion, about sacrifice? (I know this is going off-topic...please feel free to start another thread.) |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 04/20/2007 11:41:13 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 12:22:31 [Permalink]
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billscott said:
quote:
An eternity of remorse and regret for rejecting the only one who could save you, all over some silly rebellious attitude towards, of all things, your creator. The one who gave you life in the first place. Sounds pretty foolish to me.
First off, if your deity is omnipotent (as you claim) then I am exactly as he intended me to be. So if I get punished in the afterlife for such a thing, then that diety can go fuck itself anyway.
Besides, there is no such thing as free will AND an omnipotent deity. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. They cannot coexist.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 12:35:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Evidence please. I already know what if coming, but...
I give you the very creation itself.
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You make an assumption about my attitude.
What assumption?
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You are quite arrogant and self-righteous,
So are you at times.
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which I'm sure your Saviour would frown upon
I have done many things for which my Savior would frown upon. That's why I am in need of a savior.
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(depending on the flavor of your religion, also assuming yours is the correct one out of the thousands that have existed).
Yes, there are 1000's of religions, but only one Truth. Truth is exclusive.
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Try being born as one of the unfortunate poor in Africa, who die of disease and starvation before even having a childhood. What arrogance!
So it is arrogant to be a poor African?
quote:
As a christian, what exactly are you doing to obey your saviour's commandment to help them? Remember your Global Warming discussion, about sacrifice? (I know this is going off-topic...please feel free to start another thread.)
Well if you really want to know I have been a monthly sponsor for World Vision since 2000 and I have just picked up my third child who I sponsor. A young boy from Zimbabwe. Worldvision is a global relief agency who many times is the first on the scene to major catastrophes with basic supplies as well as trying to meet impoverished peoples daily needs. I have also given regularly to our local rescue mission and local food bank to help out the less fortunate right here in my hometown. Now or course none of this will earn my way to heaven, nor do I think of myself as better then someone who has not given to a worthy cause such as these. My salvation is still 100% dependant on God's grace through Christ Jesus. Good works can be evidence of salvation, but certainly are not the means to it.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Baghdad Tech Massacre
