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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 23:33:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Despite ALL the lies and fuckups I think we should be capable of salvaging Iraq. Its a tragedy that we are not and the blame can be squarely placed on an incompetent (and criminal) president and his incompetent political appointees and cronies.
Saving Iraq is almost certainly impossible. How about we give human rights agencies time and resources to prepare for the refugees? It's this sort of thing that we should think about. We might not win a war but hopefully we can do something right.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2007 : 23:39:39 [Permalink]
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@tomic said:
quote:
We might not win a war
Because, in this instance, there is no war to fight.
I don't think anyone disagrees with you that our inevitable withdrawal from Iraq should be done in a considered and thoughtful manner. I don't think it will happen that way, but it definitely should.
I'd also like to see us come up with a way to not screw over the Kurds.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 08:09:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic...quote:
Originally posted by me...
How about we leave Iraq and let the people who acknowledge responsibility pay for the damages?
You make it seem so easy.
Well it would certainly be much easier for me (me: "I'm not responsible for the situation in Iraq.") than it would be for you (@tomic: "We are responsible for the situation in Iraq.") because, as you are one of the responsible parties, it would likely cost you millions.
quote:
Originally posted by @tomic...
I have no plan. That's not my job.
Perhaps, as one of those responsible for the mess in Iraq, you'd be interested in reading some of the exit plans developed by others.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert...
I'm having trouble understanding why you think an immediate ending of our participation in that conflict is necessarily impulsive and ill-conceived.
I'm curious, too. An immediate withdrawal doesn't actually imply some kind of cluster fuck mad dash for the personnel transports. Although it may not be obvious, @tomic, everyone here advocating a swift end to our occupation seems to understand that an orderly exit would take some time. But without evidence or analysis showing that we will be in a worse position if we begin withdrawing right away, what reason could anyone have for wanting to delay that process? When US soldiers are dying at a rate of 16 per week and 3,000 Iraq citizens are being killed each week, because of our participation, a strategy of scratching our collective asses and thinking about it a while longer doesn't seem all that sound.
If you have some support for the contention that we will suffer greater losses by leaving Iraq than by staying, please share it. The gist of this thread seems to be that CNN's analysis doesn't do a very good job of supporting that position. At the very least it neglects relativity, a consideration for legitimate exit options which do exist. Without more substantial rationale for staying, it's past time to start the process of leaving.
And if your opinion that we shouldn't end the occupation just yet comes from not having read or heard an appealing exit strategy, maybe there is a plan you can get behind listed on that page I linked above.
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 13:03:11 [Permalink]
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Perhaps, as one of those responsible for the mess in Iraq, you'd be interested in reading some of the exit plans developed by others.
Are you suggesting that only those plans should be under consideration?
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An immediate withdrawal doesn't actually imply some kind of cluster fuck mad dash for the personnel transports.
That's how I read it.
Even so, this is all off-topic. The real subject is whether CNN opposes a troop pullout from Iraq because a lone analyst suggested things might get worse. I still maintain that is an unfair characterization.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:01:36 [Permalink]
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GeeMack said:
quote:
Well it would certainly be much easier for me (me: "I'm not responsible for the situation in Iraq.") than it would be for you (@tomic: "We are responsible for the situation in Iraq.") because, as you are one of the responsible parties, it would likely cost you millions.
If you are a citizen of the US then you share some portion of the responsibility for how Iraq has turned out. That's just how it works. No, you didn't vote for the idiot who made the decision, and yes he bears the brunt of the responsibility, but every one of us gets a piece also.
@tomic said:
quote:
Even so, this is all off-topic. The real subject is whether CNN opposes a troop pullout from Iraq because a lone analyst suggested things might get worse. I still maintain that is an unfair characterization
That appears to be their position. It is the only one they have offered, so how else could we be able to tell?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:12:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
That appears to be their position. It is the only one they have offered, so how else could we be able to tell?
You've got to be kidding me. CNN.com has tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of articles. Analysts have said many things at many times on some of these articles. To pick one out of all of them and say that this is the position is, as I've said, unfair.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:29:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by @tomic...
Are you suggesting that only those plans should be under consideration?
Of course not. I am pointing out that there are actually exit plans available for review and consideration. Plans... plural. However good or bad they are, however well or poorly conceived, there are plans. I am suggesting that scratching one's ass and being patient, not developing or considering an exit strategy, while hundreds or thousands of people are being unnecessarily killed, is a pretty lousy approach. It's a particularly irresponsible approach for those who take the position that "[w]e are responsible for the situation in Iraq."
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2007 : 14:33:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am suggesting that scratching one's ass and being patient, not developing or considering an exit strategy, while hundreds or thousands of people are being unnecessarily killed, is a pretty lousy approach.
That's what I've been saying. I've been very clear that I am for the development and implementation of such a plan. It's just my hope that the plan we go with is mindful of the consequences. That's something our current leadership has neglected in my opinion.
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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CNN warns against Iraq pullout
