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Mycroft
Skeptic Friend
USA
427 Posts |
 Posted - 05/07/2007 : 21:16:12
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"But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God's spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
I was just doing some casual reading on some of the candidates and came across this quote. It made me think of similar quotes from Bush and other conservative often used to "prove" they're dangerously deranged and/or psychotic, and I wonder if it would have the same effect on peoples opinion of someone from the Democratic party.
So, does it? Should we worry that Obama might be influenced by invisible voices he calls "God" that might lead him to insanely dangrous policies?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 21:23:48 [Permalink]
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| I have never bought into that criticism of George Bush. Even if he is lead by what he thinks is divine inspiration, I think the much more significant guiding force for his actions are his connections and rich-boy upbringing. I don't think he has any connection with the majority of people in the USA, and that is what has made him so dangerous when he makes his political decisions. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2007 : 23:32:18 [Permalink]
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Obama's statement certainly doesn't make me feel all warm and tingly. I should point out, however, that those of us who have critiqued Bush for the same kind of BS do so in a context wherein he has led us into an intractable war, using lies to do so, and initially calling it a "Crusade," and in the context of his unstinting support for theocracy, ID, and crazy preachers.
That kind of historical context is not there with Obama, but that's the best I can say about his remarks.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 01:16:30 [Permalink]
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Well, find me a quote from Obama where he says he "talks to a higher father" for advice on foreign policy (as W did when asked if he ever asked his father for advice on Iraq), and maybe we'll have an actual comparison to make.
I expect a certain ammount of the whole shill-for-god thing from any candidate for any political office in the US.
quote:
Should we worry that Obama might be influenced by invisible voices he calls "God" that might lead him to insanely dangrous policies?
If he takes it any further than your quote of him, then I'd say it is a cause for worry.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 02:29:44 [Permalink]
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Dude wrote, in part: quote:
I expect a certain ammount of the whole shill-for-god thing from any candidate for any political office in the US.
Right on. In our present state of religious hysteria in this country, we sadly have to lower our expectations for what politicians may say.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Orwellingly Yurz
SFN Regular
USA
529 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 22:33:19 [Permalink]
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YO: Mygoodness, Mycroft, you aren't trying to draw some of us liberal/progressives out now, are you?
Your assumption is flat. There are theistic folks who are perfectly normal and likeable people, such as Obama. Then there are those who claim to believe in God and come off as being insufferable assholes, dangerous and incompetent. That analogy won't hunt.
OY!
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"The modern conservative...is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy. That is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
--John Kenneth Galbraith
If dogs run free
Then what must be,
Must be...
And that is all
--Bob Dylan
The neo-cons have gotten welfare for themselves down to a fine art.
--me
"The meek shall inherit the earth, but not the mineral rights."
--J. Paul Getty
"The great thing about Art isn't what it give us, but what we become through it."
--Oscar Wilde
"We have Art in order not to die of life."
--Albert Camus
"I cling like a miser to the freedom I lose when surrounded by an abundance of things."
--Albert Camus
"Experience is the name so many people give to their mistakes."
--Oscar Wilde |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 01:04:07 [Permalink]
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From Obama's web sitequote:
today I'd like to talk about the connection between religion and politics and perhaps offer some thoughts about how we can sort through some of the often bitter arguments that we've been seeing over the last several years.
Open the link to see what he says about this stuff directly.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/09/2007 01:05:08 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2007 : 02:21:29 [Permalink]
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I don't much care what superstitious baggage Obama is dragging around, as long as it is not dragging him around. And as long as he doesn't try and lay it on the rest of us.
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 00:47:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy...
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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Right.  Who are you kidding? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/10/2007 : 04:28:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by beskeptigal
Originally posted by filthy...
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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Right. Who are you kidding?
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I beg your pardon...?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 04:40:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Originally posted by filthy...
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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Right. Who are you kidding?
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I beg your pardon...?
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My guess would be something along the lines of that a politician who's survived more than a few microseconds has almost certainly lied.
Or to quote (I think) Kil, and he may not be the original source:
"I like our liars more than their liars"
'tis just the nature of the game, methinks. Much as I wish it were otherwise.
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John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 05/10/2007 04:41:05 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 06:02:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JohnOAS
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Originally posted by filthy...
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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Right. Who are you kidding?
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I beg your pardon...?
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My guess would be something along the lines of that a politician who's survived more than a few microseconds has almost certainly lied.
Or to quote (I think) Kil, and he may not be the original source:
"I like our liars more than their liars"
'tis just the nature of the game, methinks. Much as I wish it were otherwise.
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Ah, we're speaking in generalities, then. I can accept that. The truth is that I was only vaguely aware of Obama until just recently. I knew that there was a black senator with a suspicious-sounding name, but that was it.
I'm currently paying only modest attention to the various speaches and polls by and about the candidates. It's really too early, although it is interesting, and fun, to watch the Republicans self-immolate as they try to get distance between themselves and Bush, and still suck up to the ilk of Pat Robertson.
Did he taste good, Mr. Romney? 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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TG
Skeptic Friend
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 07:39:59 [Permalink]
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He sounds reasonably rational, but the train jumps the tracks at this point:And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.
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He correctly notes the ethical problems created by numerous biblical passages and somehow concludes that the solution is to "read our bibles". Isn't that the problem, rather than the solution?
Or am I missing the subtle message that if we "read our bibles" we'll realize how absurd some of it is and make rational decisions rather than blindly applying the draconian moral teachings of a culture long dead and gone? |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 16:19:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by TG
He sounds reasonably rational, but the train jumps the tracks at this point:And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.
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He correctly notes the ethical problems created by numerous biblical passages and somehow concludes that the solution is to "read our bibles". Isn't that the problem, rather than the solution?
Or am I missing the subtle message that if we "read our bibles" we'll realize how absurd some of it is and make rational decisions rather than blindly applying the draconian moral teachings of a culture long dead and gone?
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Since Obama had just pointed out several absurdities and contradictions, and used the plural, "bibles," I'm assuming he's cautioning people to be wary of the application of scripture. Like many politicians, I suspect Senator Obama is a good deal less religious than he'd like people to think. But I could be wrong, too.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 19:33:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Originally posted by filthy...
Thus far, at least as far as I know, he has, unlike his potential predecessor, yet to lie to us.
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Right. Who are you kidding?
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I beg your pardon...?
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Obama would have to be a bit superhuman to not pad the resume and make a few back room deals like the rest of them. You can go with "relatively more honest" if you want. My guess is less experience, less time to have made the usual self promoting moves, less time for the press to have uncovered it all. But the idea this is Mr. Magic, Mr. Perfect, Mr. What a Hero Should Be, or whatever category you put him in, just doesn't fit with a skeptic's view of human nature.
So the following isn't meant as some shocking expose'. Rather it is just a bit of evidence Obama is as human as the rest of them.
Obama memoir left out credits for activism, critics say - The senator and presidential hopeful's account of his work at a Chicago housing project leaves out others' work on asbestos removal, organizers charge. - By Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writer; February 19, 2007 But others tell the story much differently.
They say Obama did not play the singular role in the asbestos episode that he portrays in the best-selling memoir "Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance." Credit for pushing officials to deal with the cancer-causing substance, according to interviews and news accounts from that period, also goes to a well-known preexisting group at Altgeld Gardens and to a local newspaper called the Chicago Reporter. Obama does not mention either one in his book.
"Just because someone writes it doesn't make it true," said longtime Altgeld resident Hazel Johnson, who worked with Obama on the asbestos campaign and had been pushing for a variety of environmental cleanups years before he arrived.
U.S. Rep. Bobby L. Rush (D-Ill.) said it was Johnson's work, as well as asbestos testing conducted by the Chicago Reporter, that sparked the interest of Chicago officials and prompted Rush, who at the time was a City Council member, to launch an inquiry. Though he has not read Obama's memoir, Rush, who has been a political rival of Obama in recent years, said Johnson's role was so prominent that he was "offended" by anyone telling the Altgeld story without including her. |
Obama Says He Regrets Land Deal With Fundraiser, Senator Bought a Parcel From His Neighbor, a Now-Indicted Political Operative; By Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writer; Sunday, December 17, 2006; Page A06
Shades of Truth - Does Barack Obama embroider his own history for political effect? - By Bob Norman; Published: March 15, 2007
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 19:39:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by TG
He sounds reasonably rational, but the train jumps the tracks at this point:And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.
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He correctly notes the ethical problems created by numerous biblical passages and somehow concludes that the solution is to "read our bibles". Isn't that the problem, rather than the solution?
Or am I missing the subtle message that if we "read our bibles" we'll realize how absurd some of it is and make rational decisions rather than blindly applying the draconian moral teachings of a culture long dead and gone?
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Since Obama had just pointed out several absurdities and contradictions, and used the plural, "bibles," I'm assuming he's cautioning people to be wary of the application of scripture. Like many politicians, I suspect Senator Obama is a good deal less religious than he'd like people to think. But I could be wrong, too.
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There's no way, HM. This guy is campaigning to the believers. Do you really think he's going to say, "the Bible is often poorly interpreted, read it and be careful to interpret it correctly"? Obama's statement is the typical Bible thumper response, "all this bad stuff is human made, read God's words directly, God is love, yadda yadda."
I find the, "read the Bible statement" to be more like, well he almost got real, but he fell back on Dobson lite instead.
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/10/2007 19:42:46 |
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Obama: "I felt God's spirit beckoning me."
