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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2007 : 18:41:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
The scary thing is thinking about what God's "gift" of free will really means. Analogously:Father: Okay, son, you can either get a haircut, or go play XBox with your friends. You get to pick.
Son: XBox! XBox!
Father: You're grounded. Forever. That sort of choice isn't really "free."
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A better analogy is
Father:Ok son do you want to play in the playground or in the highway? You choose.
We get to choose, but there are natural consequences of all decisions we make good or bad. God freely lets us choose and he even tells us the consequences of our decisions before we have to make them, something the father in your analogy did not do until after the decision was made. At least God gives us the correct answer beforehand.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2007 : 18:53:01 [Permalink]
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Does anyone have a link to the debate?
Thanks in advance.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 04:59:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does anyone have a link to the debate?
Thanks in advance.
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Ya, I made a link to it on page two. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 08:50:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Paulos23
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Does anyone have a link to the debate?
Thanks in advance.
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Ya, I made a link to it on page two.
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Thanks, I will watch it tonight. I am sure everyone will be waiting with bated breath for my comments.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 17:10:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
We get to choose, but there are natural consequences of all decisions we make good or bad. God freely lets us choose and he even tells us the consequences of our decisions before we have to make them, something the father in your analogy did not do until after the decision was made. At least God gives us the correct answer beforehand. |
All I recall from Genesis is God saying "don't eat the fruit," not "if you eat the fruit you'll feel shame, and I will banish you from Eden, and give Eve birth pains, and make Adam toil." In fact, God seems rather surprised that the whole apple episode occured, especially in light of the fact that he made the talking snake and knew what it would do. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2007 : 19:19:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
We get to choose, but there are natural consequences of all decisions we make good or bad. God freely lets us choose and he even tells us the consequences of our decisions before we have to make them, something the father in your analogy did not do until after the decision was made. At least God gives us the correct answer beforehand. |
All I recall from Genesis is God saying "don't eat the fruit," not "if you eat the fruit you'll feel shame, and I will banish you from Eden, and give Eve birth pains, and make Adam toil." In fact, God seems rather surprised that the whole apple episode occured, especially in light of the fact that he made the talking snake and knew what it would do.
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I beginning to suspect that God just might not be omniscient. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 08:34:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dave W.
The scary thing is thinking about what God's "gift" of free will really means. Analogously:Father: Okay, son, you can either get a haircut, or go play XBox with your friends. You get to pick.
Son: XBox! XBox!
Father: You're grounded. Forever. That sort of choice isn't really "free."
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A better analogy is
Father:Ok son do you want to play in the playground or in the highway? You choose.
We get to choose, but there are natural consequences of all decisions we make good or bad. God freely lets us choose and he even tells us the consequences of our decisions before we have to make them, something the father in your analogy did not do until after the decision was made. At least God gives us the correct answer beforehand.
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I think a better analogy would be:
Father: well, son, you can play with your friends or with your XBox. But, if you pick the Xbox, you're going to be grounded forever.
or,
Some dictator: you can be with me or against me. But if you're against me, you'll die a horrible death.
There's no actual choice there. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 08:57:34 [Permalink]
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That had to be one of the worst debates I have ever seen. The creationist spent to much time trying to convert as opposed to proving their point. The atheists debate tactic seemed to be huffing and puffing with implied insults and had nothing beyond sound bite answers to the topic which in many cases did not fit the question asked.
Does anyone know of a better debate on this topic?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2007 : 11:02:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
I think a better analogy would be:
Father: well, son, you can play with your friends or with your XBox. But, if you pick the Xbox, you're going to be grounded forever.
or,
Some dictator: you can be with me or against me. But if you're against me, you'll die a horrible death.
There's no actual choice there.
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Yep, God supposedly wants people to choose to love him and not be robots, but then creates the worst possible punishment for not choosing that path - and on top of it all doesn't even give us the small favor or making his existence known.
It's a trap! |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Rankdiz
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 10:41:20 [Permalink]
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"Yep, God supposedly wants people to choose to love him and not be robots, but then creates the worst possible punishment for not choosing that path - and on top of it all doesn't even give us the small favor or making his existence known." by pleco
The book of Romans chapter 1 is a great book for those of you to read. Please read it and then reply to my response. If you don't read it then you chose to make yourself uninformed, and just writing pure opinion not based on anything other than feelings. Any halfway decent debater would know you have to have facts not just feelings to debate strongly. So here is fact:
1. God is seen throughout creation.
if you want to see creation (yourself, trees, skies, and everything else around you.) as made by some random chance, how do you explain the great details in the CREATION of the eye, blood vessels, the mechanics of the bending of a finger, and the human body in its entirety? Romans 1:19-20 says: "19.since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20.For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood from what has been made, so that MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE." (NIV version)
2. I would argue that you are not a robot! God allows you to make your own bed and lay in it. Again Romans 1 is so clear on this. Please read it or your going to be lost :) This next portion of Romans 1:24-32 is a long passage i put it in here for your eyes to read. Please note this is what the Bible says, not my opinion. I'm in no way judging anyone in this forum, but if the Scriptures make you angry or offended who should you be mad at really? The Bible or yourself? Or if your convicted in anyway open your heart to read more of the book of Romans on your own. Here it is friends!
#65279;24#65279; Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. #65279;25#65279; They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
#65279;26#65279; Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. #65279;27#65279; In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
#65279;28#65279; Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. #65279;29#65279; They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, #65279;30#65279; slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; #65279;31#65279; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. #65279;32#65279; Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (Ro 1:24-32). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
God has no traps! He is very open, and very clear that He gives you the choices to make on your own! Jesus Christ is all about a relationship guys! God will never force Himself on anyone, it is up to you to make the choice to listen and believe in Him and trust in Jesus Christ as your savior. Repent=(turn away from your sin) and ask Him into come into your life and change it! He did it for me, I know He can do the same for you! You will be held accountable on that day for your own choices. You will have no excuse, or anyone else to blame.
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 11:09:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
The book of Romans chapter 1 is a great book for those of you to read. Please read it and then reply to my response. If you don't read it then you chose to make yourself uninformed, and just writing pure opinion not based on anything other than feelings. Any halfway decent debater would know you have to have facts not just feelings to debate strongly. So here is fact:
1. God is seen throughout creation.
if you want to see creation (yourself, trees, skies, and everything else around you.) as made by some random chance, how do you explain the great details in the CREATION of the eye, blood vessels, the mechanics of the bending of a finger, and the human body in its entirety? |
I have read Romans and the rest of the bible more times than I can count.
You have not expressed any facts whatsoever. You quote what a religious book says, and provide no evidence. Talk about writing from feelings...
You provide argument from incredulity. Such logical fallacies will not fly in this forum. I suggest you attempt to find something else to back up what you say.
You also demonstrate that you have incorrect knowledge of evolutionary theory and abiogenisis since you use the phrase "random chance." I further suggest you research this so that when you wish to debate, you know what you are talking about.
As to your questions about the evolution of the eye, etc., I suggest the following:
The Blind Watchmaker (video here)
| 2. I would argue that you are not a robot! God allows you to make your own bed and lay in it. |
If god knows what you are going to do (god is omnipotent), then your future is sealed and you cannot do anything different, otherwise god doesn't know everything.
If your answer is that God can do anything, including have free will while knowing what will happen, then you have entered the Twilight Zone...
Meanwhile I'll snip the rest of that trash you quoted....
Don't attempt to proselytize here.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 07/05/2007 11:11:51 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 12:30:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
God will never force Himself on anyone... |
Except that "love Me or be damned forever" is obvious extortion, and pathetically insecure, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 15:10:20 [Permalink]
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Perhaps unknowingly, the statements of Rankdiz embrace a misnomer as well as the latent evil and sadism embedded in many religions. Here is the proof:
Originally posted by Rankdiz
"…if you want to see creation (yourself, trees, skies, and everything else around you.) as made by some random chance, how do you explain the great details in the CREATION of the eye, blood vessels, the mechanics of the bending of a finger(?)…" |
False: "Random chance" is not the contention of evolution. Life evolves through natural selection cumulatively not randomly. The term "random chance" is often repeated in the criticisms leveled by fundamentalist Christianity which is a political movement masquerading as a religion.
Originally posted by Rankdiz
"…I would argue that you are not a robot! God allows you to make your own bed and lay in it. Again Romans 1 is so clear on this. Please read it or your going to be lost :)" |
Latent sadism: The statement: "or [you're] going to be lost :) " adds a smile because Rankdiz perhaps unconsciously delights in the hope that adults and children who don't follow his dictated pseudo religious dogma will suffer horrible pain forever. That likely gives Rankdiz an "I told you so" feeling of immature satisfaction.
An actual God or no God, or Mother Nature or whatever you want to call it is as absent from the dogmatic, rigid Bible quoting statements of Rankdiz as from the rest of existence.
Rankdiz,
You already have an appreciation for the vastness of the Universe and the wonders of Nature. Please stop preaching and be humble for a while. Try to realize that Nature is actually vaster and more profound than the insignificant, superstitious and politically manipulative "God" of the Bible, who is a recent invention in human history. Consider that you could be wrong. Doubt can be a good thing sometimes. You can still have structure in your life, laws and moral values. You can still admire some of the things Jesus said, without the smug superiority and manipulative lies of the fundamentalists. Be religious if you feel you should but keep in mind there are much greater things than the misinterpretations of the Bible.
(P.S. Yes, I wrote my response somewhat in the style of a religious pamphlet – a touch of stylistic parody for fun, but the feeling is an honest one.) 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 17:24:37 [Permalink]
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You are changing the subject, Rankdiz. We would all appreciate it if you would reply to our questions and requests for clarification prior to moving on.Originally posted by Rankdiz
The book of Romans chapter 1 is a great book for those of you to read. Please read it and then reply to my response. If you don't read it then you chose to make yourself uninformed, and just writing pure opinion not based on anything other than feelings. Any halfway decent debater would know you have to have facts not just feelings to debate strongly. So here is fact:
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Like pleco, I have also read your bible many times. Many of us have read the sacred texts of several world religions; in fact, some of us research these things in great detail.
It contributes nothing to accuse us of this lack of research; please reconsider your statements.
I would call your style of argument disengenuous.
Originally posted by pleco
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If god knows what you are going to do (god is omnipotent), then your future is sealed and you cannot do anything different, otherwise god doesn't know everything.
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To pick a small nit here (is there such a thing as a large nit?), pleco, I think you mean omniscient rather than omnipotent.
I suppose, though, one definition could imply the other.... |
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ABC Nightline Debate
