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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2007 : 17:51:30 [Permalink]
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B10 said:
| I suppose, though, one definition could imply the other.... |
Omnipotence implies omniscience, yeah. You can't be all powerfull unless you also know everything there is to know.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 17:57:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
The book of Romans chapter 1 is a great book for those of you to read. Please read it and then reply to my response. |
It's pretty rude to drop by a site like ours and presume we are totally ignorant of what is in the Bible.
Many of us have studied the Bible. Either as former practicing Christians, or as skeptics wanting to learn more about what we argue against.
But you're welcome to try again.
| If you don't read it then you chose to make yourself uninformed, and just writing pure opinion not based on anything other than feelings. Any halfway decent debater would know you have to have facts not just feelings to debate strongly. |
You know, that's exactly what I usually tell Christians (or theists in general) when they start blurting nonsense about Evolution, and science in general.
The "fact" is at best second hand oral tradition written down, and that alone makes it unreliable as "fact". Any court in the US would dismiss such given testimony. In science it counts for nothing at all.
Arguments from faith rests entirely on emotion.
Edited for grammar |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/05/2007 18:07:11 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 18:46:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
The book of Romans chapter 1 is a great book for those of you to read. Please read it and then reply to my response. |
I used bright yellow, orange, pink, and blue highlighters to mark up Paul's writings, which the Bible didn't say was a sin, but which for some reason triggered stares when I went to Bible study in a conservative church last year. 
Since you urged us to read Romans 1, Rankdiz, I'll respond by letting you know that it contains one of my favorite lines among Paul's writings:
Romans 1:20 (NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
That sentence has to be one of the most stupid & meaningless leaps of illogic I have ever read. Oh sure, it sounds poetic rolling off the tongue, but take it apart & look at what he's actually saying.
My re-write of Romans 1:20 - "Before the creation, God's invisible qualities were not visible, well duh, but now just look at The Creation & make the assumption, even if it's unfounded, that it must be a manifestation of a god, which must undoubtedly be eternal and divine, because that's what we mean when we imagine a god and we can't imagine any other explanation, especially here in the 1st century, when so little is known about science. And it's so obvious that it's your fault if you don't come to the same narrow conclusion as I do." |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 20:38:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
To pick a small nit here (is there such a thing as a large nit?), pleco, I think you mean omniscient rather than omnipotent.
I suppose, though, one definition could imply the other....
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Oops, thanks for the correction!  I was in a hurry... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 07/05/2007 20:40:58 |
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Rankdiz
New Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 20:44:18 [Permalink]
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OK. First I would just like to apologize to those of you that I offended. I was never trying to imply that no one here has never read Romans 1. I was just trying to get people that have never read it, to read it first before the submitted a reply. I was not trying to say that no one in this room has never seen a Bible or read one in their entire life. Is that not how this particular room was started? If you have not seen the actual debate you really can't discuss it to begin with? I was just encouraging people to read the portion of scripture that i was quoting. That's all.
Contrary to what some of you believe I'm not trying to be proud or arrogant merely portraying a different side of the coin. You guys call yourselves "Skeptics" yet when someone is skeptical of your views and philosophies (like myself) and provide another side what happens? BITTERNESS, ANGER, AN ALL OUT SELF RIGHTEOUS CRY THAT SAYS "WE AREN'T LIKE YOU SIMPLE MINDED BIBLE BELIEVING DUMMIES!" We are smarter than you because we believe in anything else but that. Yet, the fact still remains. Not a one of you answered my question or questions. If evolution is a "Scientific fact" and everything was created by one single cell organism. How in the world does it will itself to be anything? Animal, human, bird, reptile, or anything else? Where did the "single cell evolve from?" It had to come from somewhere right? How can you honestly put FAITH in that. You have to have FAITH TO BELIEVE THAT TOO. How can you say its fact when no one was there? Skeptics make the same argument to me when I refer to God. :) You can't answer the question because the answer is not out there for you. I have faith in an all powerful CREATOR He is how I got here. I have the utmost confidence in that. Other than insults, and slams for my beliefs because you all think that I'm part of a "religion" (which real Christianity is not a religion it is a relationship with Jesus Christ.) Not "do's" and "don'ts." There has been zero answers to my questions. I'm waiting.
For all of you in here that replied to my previous statements saying that you have studied the Bible through and through, that's awesome! Keep studying! Just answer me this then, did you miss all the documented prophesy answered through both archaeological findings and historical documents that back up the sayings in that Bible you study from? Or are you just choosing to ignore them? The guy with the highlighters in your Bible don't you worry about what anyone thinks of that! You just keep on marking up that Bible of yours it was made to be used and written in. :)
waiting for some honest answers, not just some sarcastic chatter. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 20:49:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
There has been zero answers to my questions. I'm waiting.
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I take it then that you did not view the link I posted, nor did any of the research you need that I pointed to you. Why?
| For all of you in here that replied to my previous statements saying that you have studied the Bible through and through, that's awesome! Keep studying! |
A lot of us ex-christians view the bible as the main reason why we were able to free ourselves from religion.
| Just answer me this then, did you miss all the documented prophesy answered through both archaeological findings and historical documents that back up the sayings in that Bible you study from? Or are you just choosing to ignore them? |
Really? Please name these documented prophesies. Of course I realize this is a shift in the goalposts (and who is surprised?), but indulge yourself...
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 07/05/2007 21:16:30 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 21:08:38 [Permalink]
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The thing you have to understand, Rankidz, is that you are arguing points which most of us have heard before. It's really nothing new.
| If evolution is a "Scientific fact" and everything was created by one single cell organism. How in the world does it will itself to be anything? Animal, human, bird, reptile, or anything else? |
If by "will" you mean the want to survive, it is built into the genetic code. Those that don't have the want to survive don't, and thus are not here anymore.
| Where did the "single cell evolve from?" |
We don't know yet, and we will never know for certain. But there is a helluva lot of researching trying to find out how to create a simple single cell. But what does it matter where it came from? There was no life, now there is life. Something happened, something created life. What it was is no consequence to evolution. Heck, even a god could have done it and evolution would still work. For you see, evolution first assumes that life exists, and only talks about what happens to that life over generations. Evolution does not talk about what happened before or during the creation of life.
And if you are going to say goddidit, it's not a scientific hypothesis and thus, dismissed.
| How can you honestly put FAITH in that. You have to have FAITH TO BELIEVE THAT TOO. |
We know life wasn't here and now it is. No faith needed.
| How can you say its fact when no one was there? |
You walk into a room and you find my (bad) dog and a trash can knocked over with its contents spilled all over the floor. What happened? Were you there?
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/05/2007 21:10:31 |
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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 07:08:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
You walk into a room and you find my (bad) dog and a trash can knocked over with its contents spilled all over the floor. What happened? Were you there? |
"The cat did it." - Ricky's dog |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 08:05:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Rankdiz
For all of you in here that replied to my previous statements saying that you have studied the Bible through and through, that's awesome! Keep studying! Just answer me this then, did you miss all the documented prophesy answered through both archaeological findings and historical documents that back up the sayings in that Bible you study from? Or are you just choosing to ignore them? The guy with the highlighters in your Bible don't you worry about what anyone thinks of that! You just keep on marking up that Bible of yours it was made to be used and written in. :)
waiting for some honest answers, not just some sarcastic chatter. |
Hi, Rankdiz Thanks for your thoughtful reply. While I can't say that I've read the entire Bible-- Hebrew and New Testament-- all the way through, I've read large sections and certainly studies many others.
You suggest that in the Bible, there is "documented prophesy answered through both archaeological findings and historical documents that back up the sayings in that Bible." I would like to argue that while in some cases, archaeological findings and historical documents do support what is written in the Bible, no such example is particularly interesting or compelling as a proof that Yahweh is a real god. Take, for instance, the so-called Solomonic gates. According to this site, the discovery of these gates at the sites of Hazor, Gezer, and Megiddo "validated" Biblical history and "proved the existence of the real King Solomon." And at best, this is all they do. Prove the existence of a king that is completely uncontroversial. It doesn't mean that everything said about Solomon is true. It just means that there was a Solomon.
Or does it? Indeed, the most recent excavators of Megiddo "assign the six-chambered gate to the period of the divided monarchy following Solomon's death." Oops. And so it goes. The destruction layer at Jericho was thought to have proven the Joshua story true, until it was discovered that it didn't fit chronologically, and that the levels that fit with the time of Joshua showed no such destruction.
Yes, certain Assyrian annals mention carrying off Biblical kings, just like the Bible. But does attesting to the existence of a certain biblical king mean that there really is a Yahweh? I'm unconvinced. |
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