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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2007 : 22:21:51 [Permalink]
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Dave with a commodity generally all boats rise and fall with the tide of the market. You are correct nobody buys crude retail, I was mistaken in my choice of terms.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 05:20:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave with a commodity generally all boats rise and fall with the tide of the market. |
Tell that to OPEC. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 05:22:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I have been making the same argument this entire time, your confusion comes from the fact that I explain it in different ways so as to try and help you all understand. |
Actually, you haven't.
| A cap on emissions will result in lower fuel use as it will be necessary to either burn less fuel or use more efficient burning methods. |
But this isn't correct. That is, while coal gassification may allow one to produce more energy with less coal, it doesn't follow that coal will go up in price. (Indeed, one could argue that since you get more energy with less coal, such things would lower the demand-- but I won't argue that.) Point is, caps don't limit the supply of fossil fuels. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 05:58:02 [Permalink]
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Cune noted:| Point is, caps don't limit the supply of fossil fuels. |
Right. Nor do italics.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 07:20:32 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---"while coal gassification may allow one to produce more energy with less coal"
There is not much profit margin in the energy industry; if less coal is used, sold, and bought, than the price must rise per unit as there in a minimum amount of capitol needed to stay in buisness.
Dave, OPEC as a group essentially sets the world market price by increasing or decreasing supply, with all non OPEC members selling oil for the market price of which they have little control.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 07:52:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
There is not much profit margin in the energy industry; if less coal is used, sold, and bought, than the price must rise per unit as there in a minimum amount of capitol needed to stay in buisness. |
WHAT?!? It sounds like you've just said that is less coal is bought (less demand?), the price goes up.
But it's all moot, because the supply of coal will not be artificially lowered because of emissions caps. There are myriad technologies power companies can use to lower emissions. None of them mean that a power plant is going to purchase less coal (which, according to you, would somehow raise the price). |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 07:53:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, OPEC as a group essentially sets the world market price by increasing or decreasing supply, with all non OPEC members selling oil for the market price of which they have little control. |
It seems that few people aware of the oil market would agree with your assertions.| There is not much profit margin in the energy industry; if less coal is used, sold, and bought, than the price must rise per unit as there in a minimum amount of capitol needed to stay in buisness. |
And why do you think businesses won't go out of business? If they raise prices, they will not sell product. You've failed to address this, instead simply re-iterating your incorrect conclusion that the price "must" go up if demand goes down....the only way we're going to bring down [gasoline] prices is to increase supply or curb demand...
- Michael Sallinger, Chief Economist for the FTC So tell us why he - and the rest of us - have it wrong, why don't you? Simply repeating yourself won't cut it.
Oh, as far as oil companies being mostly helpless to set prices in spite of "the market":Schumer's basic argument is that the five major American oil companies are working together to keep prices high.
- Same source |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 10:40:01 [Permalink]
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Jerome said:
| There is not much profit margin in the energy industry |
Now I KNOW you are nothing but a stupid troll.
ExxonMobil profits for 2006 were greater than the GNP of most of the nations on earth. Just profits.
If you examine ExxonMobil's entire budget, and considered it in terms of a GNP, then they would be considered one of the 30 wealthiest nations in the world.
An that is just ONE energy company.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 11:03:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Jerome said:
| There is not much profit margin in the energy industry |
Now I KNOW you are nothing but a stupid troll.
ExxonMobil profits for 2006 were greater than the GNP of most of the nations on earth. Just profits.
If you examine ExxonMobil's entire budget, and considered it in terms of a GNP, then they would be considered one of the 30 wealthiest nations in the world.
An that is just ONE energy company.
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I was thinking this, too, Dude. However, to his defense, JdG may have been talking about power companies. I don't know if, for instance, Edison is rich or not (I bet they are), or what the margin is for such things, but something tells me that he's more wrong than right on this either way... |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/24/2007 12:33:08 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 11:45:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dr. Mabuse, is it common for Swedish national TV to air the latest Academy Award wining documentary?
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Why do you ask? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 11:51:46 [Permalink]
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| Supply and Demand applies to television as well, if people will watch/want to watch something, TV will provide. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 12:30:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
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I was thinking this, too, Dude. However, to his defense, JdG may have been talking about power companies. |
Or gas stations themselves. The profit for the station owner on a gallon of gas is a penny or two. They make their real money selling chips, soda, cigarettes, carwashes, and - if they've got a garage - doing oil changes and brake jobs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 13:20:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Supply and Demand applies to television as well, if people will watch/want to watch something, TV will provide.
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No. According to Jerome's twist on economic laws, the networks will shut down any really popular show.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Vegeta
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
238 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 15:26:54 [Permalink]
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anyone mentioned the latest edition of New Scientist yet? it's got about 4 pages on the issue. One of the interesting things was concerning the ratio of C14 in growth rings in trees. All the C14 we burn in fossil fuels has decayed by now, so the concentration of CO2 that we are releasing can be gaugeed by examining growth rings for C14.
Sorry if this has been covered, i don't really have time to check all the way through all the various topics. |
What are you looking at? Haven't you ever seen a pink shirt before?
"I was asked if I would do a similar sketch but focusing on the shortcomings of Islam rather than Christianity. I said, 'No, no I wouldn't. I may be an atheist but I'm not stupid.'" - Steward Lee |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 18:39:47 [Permalink]
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Exxon quarterly profits where $9.92 billion on sales of $100.72 billion. This is approximately a 10% profit, not much margin for error.
In business there is a break point in sales that must be met prior to making any profit. There are things such as employee obligations, rents, leases, taxes, and many other costs of doing business that must be met before making any profit. The closer to the break point sales go on a downward swing the smaller the profit percentage becomes. If sales of the amount of units decrease to the level where the break point can not be met many times a business will increase the cost of its product so as to stay above the break point.
It is not as simple as saying if Exxon sells only $50 billion than its profit will be $5 billion. Economics are not a closed static system as you all seem to believe.
Dave, by the way prices of products; especially commodities, go up all the time without any decrease in units sold.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Is Global Warming a Scam (part 2)
Topic Locked
