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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 05/24/2007 : 22:16:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If sales of the amount of units decrease to the level where the break point can not be met many times a business will increase the cost of its product so as to stay above the break point. |
Please reference an independent account of this happening with the result that the company stayed in business.| It is not as simple as saying if Exxon sells only $50 billion than its profit will be $5 billion. Economics are not a closed static system as you all seem to believe. |
Nobody is saying that, you just can't make an honest reply to the actual arguments being made.| Dave, by the way prices of products; especially commodities, go up all the time without any decrease in units sold. |
And now you're trying to confuse issues by bringing inflation and other factors into the discussion, without making a substantive reply to earlier points. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2007 : 23:47:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Exxon quarterly profits where $9.92 billion on sales of $100.72 billion. This is approximately a 10% profit, not much margin for error.
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[My empahsis.]
Now, you've really got your goalposts on skates -- but again on thin ice. Your "profit margin" argument, having been thoroughly trashed, has now transformed as if by magic to an indefinable "margin for error." It's hard to tell which factor most dominates your position, stupidity or cupidity.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 05/25/2007 23:59:56 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 20:03:00 [Permalink]
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There is a physiological experiment done in which a room full of twenty people are asked which is the longest stick. Only one person is not aware of the experiment. All of the people state that the middle length stick is the longest. After a short time the person who is not in on it decides also that the middle stick is the longest.
I feel like this is that experiment.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2007 : 21:45:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I feel like this is that experiment. |
Obviously!
When we ask you to support your position, what we're really doing is just pointing at the wrong stick to see if you'll go along.
Or, you could just admit that you bit off more than you could chew, ad then start over by asking questions that aren't loaded with presumptions and bias. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 09:18:19 [Permalink]
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Dave---
"A commodity is something that is relatively easily traded, that can be physically delivered, and that can be stored for a reasonable period of time. It is a characteristic of commodities that prices are determined on the basis of an active market, rather than by the supplier (or other seller) on a "cost-plus" basis."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity
Dave said---"If they raise prices, they will not sell product. You've failed to address this, instead simply re-iterating your incorrect conclusion that the price "must" go up if demand goes down."
You guys must look at the realities of markets and commodities and stop believing any propaganda which fits your world view. If the price of producing a commodity is more than the selling price, the selling price must increase to continue to produce the product. If less of a commodity is used; and it is still desired in the market, the price must be raised per unit to cover the production cost and derive a profit. The plan is to raise the cost of oil for the purpose of making it more comparative with other forms of energy. In the short term those with oil holdings will make a great deal of money as the price will rise dramatically and competition of new suppliers will be stifled as no one is going to invest in a drying commodity market.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 09:34:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
You guys must look at the realities of markets and commodities and stop believing any propaganda which fits your world view. |
That's rich, coming from you!
You noted:| If the price of producing a commodity is more than the selling price, the selling price must increase to continue to produce the product. |
But this is hardly a revelation on your part; I noted it already.
| If less of a commodity is used; and it is still desired in the market, the price must be raised per unit to cover the production cost and derive a profit. |
Until you come to terms with the fact that emissions caps won't call for or suggest using less coal or oil, it's pointless to continue this debate.
| The plan is to raise the cost of oil for the purpose of making it more comparative with other forms of energy. |
No, the plan is to lower emissions of CO2.
| In the short term those with oil holdings will make a great deal of money as the price will rise dramatically and competition of new suppliers will be stifled as no one is going to invest in a drying commodity market. |
No, as I have argued before-- and which you have not and cannot refute, if emissions caps result in a higher cost for energy, it is due only to the costs of improved technology, and not because of an artificial decrease in supply.
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 10:03:22 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist said "Until you come to terms with the fact that emissions caps won't call for or suggest using less coal or oil, it's pointless to continue this debate."
New technology to reduce emissions will not instantaneously be created and put into use, as such use of the energy holding products must be curtailed in the short term to meet a "freeze" of emissions.
Cune said "No, the plan is to lower emissions of CO2."
Do you also believe America is in the middle east to find WMD? Or do you believe stated goals of only the political parties with which you hold the same world view? How many examples shall I show you of the real reasons for political action being obscured for the purpose of manipulating public opinion?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 11:30:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
New technology to reduce emissions will not instantaneously be created and put into use, as such use of the energy holding products must be curtailed in the short term to meet a "freeze" of emissions. |
Similarly, caps won't be put in "instantaneously"; nevermind that there are currently existing technologies that can limit emissions. Also, none of this even suggests that it will result in a limiting of supplies of oil or coal. You're grasping at straws.
Cune said "No, the plan is to lower emissions of CO2."
Do you also believe America is in the middle east to find WMD? Or do you believe stated goals of only the political parties with which you hold the same world view? How many examples shall I show you of the real reasons for political action being obscured for the purpose of manipulating public opinion? |
*Yawn* Your argument here is particularly weak, given that in the US, the greatest cry for things like emissions caps comes not from the government, but from people outside of government. Indeed, the evidence is clear that the US government has actively tried to suppress data in support of man made global warming. And given that people like Bush and Cheney are heavily involved in the oil business, you'd think that they'd be the prime movers towards caps if it were a scheme to get rich!!!!
Does anyone else see the stupidity of this? Do you, Jerome?
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 16:16:13 [Permalink]
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Cuneiformist---"And given that people like Bush and Cheney are heavily involved in the oil business"
Much like Gore and Richardson. I case you did not know they are on the same team; Bush and Gore. Ever read Sun Tzu; divide and concur. Most people are too emotional invested in their political ideologies to see the realities.
This is humorous that the largest suppler of funding to global warming research is government and you are trying to tell me government is trying to prevent global warming research.
Double Think at its finest.
It is not a "scheme to get rich", it is a control of man.
If you do not believe this now, maybe when the Democrats win the presidency next election and do not leave the middle east it might sink in.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 17:53:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave---
"A commodity is something that is relatively easily traded, that can be physically delivered, and that can be stored for a reasonable period of time. It is a characteristic of commodities that prices are determined on the basis of an active market, rather than by the supplier (or other seller) on a "cost-plus" basis."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity |
The article also says of markets:These markets will quickly respond to changes in supply and demand to find an equilibrium price and quantity. My bolding.Dave said---"If they raise prices, they will not sell product. You've failed to address this, instead simply re-iterating your incorrect conclusion that the price "must" go up if demand goes down."
You guys must look at the realities of markets and commodities and stop believing any propaganda which fits your world view. If the price of producing a commodity is more than the selling price, the selling price must increase to continue to produce the product. If less of a commodity is used; and it is still desired in the market, the price must be raised per unit to cover the production cost and derive a profit. The plan is to raise the cost of oil for the purpose of making it more comparative with other forms of energy. In the short term those with oil holdings will make a great deal of money as the price will rise dramatically and competition of new suppliers will be stifled as no one is going to invest in a drying commodity market. |
Capping emissions still will not increase the price of the commodities. No matter how often you re-iterate the "plan" of the conspiracists that you think exists, you still haven't been able to support how capping emissions will drive up the price. I asked for a single example of that happening in any market, and you've failed to deliver.
Beyond which, even if a reduction in sales caused prices to rise, you're still unable to support your theory. If 80% of people simply stopped driving, then a three-dollar gallon of gas would need to go up to fifteen dollars just for the oil companies to make the exact same amount of income they're making now. But it won't come at an 80% reduction in overhead, since many of those costs are related to the size of plants or are otherwise fixed. Per-gallon taxes won't change, either.
Let's say demand drops to 0.1% of current levels. Is a gallon going to cost $3,000? If it were, oil companies would stop making the stuff for personal use because consumers couldn't afford it. You're simply ignoring the fact that there is more to the market than your simple-minded conspiracy of greed and backwards "law" of supply and demand. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 18:28:43 [Permalink]
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Dave I have answered your assurtion:
"If they raise prices, they will not sell product."
Will you now admit that within a commodity market that the price can be raised without loss of sales?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 18:36:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cuneiformist---"And given that people like Bush and Cheney are heavily involved in the oil business"
Much like Gore and Richardson. I case you did not know they are on the same team; Bush and Gore. Ever read Sun Tzu; divide and concur. Most people are too emotional invested in their political ideologies to see the realities. |
Oh spare me. This is so lame-- yes, Gore and Bush are really after the same thing. in secret, they meet in the White House and play pool and talk about how rich they're going to get once Gore dupes everyone.
| This is humorous that the largest suppler of funding to global warming research is government and you are trying to tell me government is trying to prevent global warming research. |
Gotcha! You argue that the government is the "argest supplier" of funding for research, but I argued earlier that in virtually ALL examples, the government has no say in the results published. Remember that journal published by the Colorado university? You AGREED that it was impossible to throw such things into your conspiracy. YOU ARE A PARANOID LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| Double Think at its finest. |
That's rich-- you're a delusional jackass.
| If you do not believe this now, maybe when the Democrats win the presidency next election and do not leave the middle east it might sink in. |
*Yawn* This makes perfect sense. We're in the Middle East to force emissions caps. Awesome. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 18:49:26 [Permalink]
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Gotha' Cune, I said it was not worth going down that road as it would be impossible to provide evidence of interference that far from the source. Those are not the exact words, but I never backed from the influence argument. In fact your comments concerning the University paper have nothing to do with the statement you quoted.
Is government the largest supplier of global warming research funds?
Does government try to prevent global warming research?
Try to answer the questions as opposed to typing insults in all CAPS.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 19:01:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Is government the largest supplier of global warming research funds? |
Certainly-- if we assume that by "government" you include public university research. But as I argued-- in order to assert that the myriad professors and graduate students who work for universities and publish in university journals are in on some conspiracy, is to also admit that you're delusional.
| Does government try to prevent global warming research? |
They don't prevent research. However, various news outlets have noted from time to time that the Bush administration has tried to white-wash such things.
| Try to answer the questions as opposed to typing insults in all CAPS. |
I'll refrain from answering in all CAPS if you'd quite dodging the issue every time it's obvious we've totally refuted your bullshit, and just own up to the fact that you're wrong. |
| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 05/26/2007 19:02:36 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2007 : 20:30:34 [Permalink]
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http://tinyurl.com/3dumeg
"President Bush has sought an increase to $4.2 billion for 2007"
This goes to the original point, this funding comes from taxes and both sides work together to tax.
Do you know what a red herring is?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Is Global Warming a Scam (part 2)
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