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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
 Posted - 05/18/2007 : 10:25:07
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18700750/
Read this article about a method of creating hydrogen and aluminum oxide from water+an aluminum alloy, strangly it doesnt seem the least bit implausable to me.
It says this system would create the hydrogen for your car inside the fuel tank and could be retrofitted onto existing cars with only minor modifications. Neat Stuff!
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 10:56:26 [Permalink]
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Interesting stuff, though it still seems like we're some ways off from the real deal. His persecution complex about "big egos" is sort of lame, though:| 'Remember that Einstein was a patent examiner and had no funding for his 1905 miracle year,' Woodall added. 'He did it on his own time. If he had been a professor at a university in the U.S. today and put in a proposal to develop the theory of special relativity it would have been summarily rejected.' |
I don't think Einstein needed what is certainly in the neighborhood of a million dollar grant to come up with Special Relativity-- and why compare yourself to Einstein? Oh, wait... |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 11:02:45 [Permalink]
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Yeah its a typical reaction of someones whos been shot down...
As far as anti-cheap energy conspiracies go though Big Oil is a 100+ billion dollar industry and would have plenty of reason to try to stop this type of stuff with their massive influance...(plays mysterious conspiracy music)
This guy clearly is more quailfied than most of the cheap-energy crackpots on the 'index... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 05/18/2007 13:11:48 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 11:55:12 [Permalink]
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| Why would Einstein "have been summarily rejected"? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 12:01:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
Why would Einstein "have been summarily rejected"?
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Because anyone with revolutionary ideas is always rejected by the establishment. And so anyone who is rejected must have a viable revolutionary idea. Didn't you know that?  |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 12:13:24 [Permalink]
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It sounds pausible. I never thought about it, but I guess that hydrogen is usually produced when a metal corrodes into a oxide. If this reaction is FAST enough to supply the hydrogen in sufficient quantities it should work. I would suppose there are problems like flushing the tank to remove the aluminum oxide sludge. I don't know how expensive gallium is or if it is a toxic material (which would make the aluminum sludge a hazardous waste), but I say more power to em if we get away from oil.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 12:18:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
It sounds pausible. I never thought about it, but I guess that hydrogen is usually produced when a metal corrodes into a oxide. If this reaction is FAST enough to supply the hydrogen in sufficient quantities it should work. I would suppose there are problems like flushing the tank to remove the aluminum oxide sludge. I don't know how expensive gallium is or if it is a toxic material (which would make the aluminum sludge a hazardous waste), but I say more power to em if we get away from oil.
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As of 2006, the current price for 1 kg gallium of 99.9999% purity seems to be at about 400 US$.
Of course, I don't know how many miles you would get on 1 kg...
| While not considered toxic, the data about gallium is inconclusive. Some sources suggest that it may cause dermatitis from prolonged exposure; other tests have not caused a positive reaction. Like most metals, finely divided gallium loses its luster. Powdered gallium appears gray. When gallium is handled with bare hands, the extremely fine dispersion of liquid gallium droplets which results from wetting skin with the metal may appear as a gray skin stain. |
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 13:11:05 [Permalink]
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Still any waste would be contained and not released as exaust.
Though JFK told me that extensive gallium use will lead to a massive ice age which would destroy the Universe. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 13:55:23 [Permalink]
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Tin foil (I assume aluminum foil works as well?), Drano (sodium hydroxide, NaOH), and water...we used to fill balloons with H2 all the time as kids.
Apparently if you cap the bottle instead you get a Drano bomb.
But my question about this process is what weight and bulk of these pellets are they talking about?
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 15:07:43 [Permalink]
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Isn't this essentially releasing energy from the chemical breakdown of aluminum, which is itself produced from the application of notoriously huge amounts of electrical energy to molten bauxite? (Boeing was originally located in the Pacific Northwest due to the availability there of large amounts of hydro-generation to produce aluminum.)
Can someone here possibly factor into this the electrical energy required to produce the aluminum in the first place? At best, wouldn't this invention just be in effect the release the energy "stored" by the refining of the aluminum in the first place? I suspect this is far from being a "free energy" solution, though it might in effect become a sort of secondary battery.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 15:35:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Isn't this essentially releasing energy from the chemical breakdown of aluminum, which is itself produced from the application of notoriously huge amounts of electrical energy to molten bauxite? (Boeing was originally located in the Pacific Northwest due to the availability there of large amounts of hydro-generation to produce aluminum.)
Can someone here possibly factor into this the electrical energy required to produce the aluminum in the first place? At best, wouldn't this invention just be in effect the release the energy "stored" by the refining of the aluminum in the first place? I suspect this is far from being a "free energy" solution, though it might in effect become a sort of secondary battery.
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Well, in the article he addressed it the cost of making the aluminum:| That cost could come way down, he figures, if the recycling is done with electricity from nuclear power plants, wind turbines or even solar power plants if economically viable. The aluminum oxide and gallium would be shipped to such plants, using electrolysis to break the oxide back down to aluminum, Woodall said, "and we start the cycle all over again." |
As for the bulk, BSG, I think the article said 350 pounds worth of pellets. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 21:15:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Isn't this essentially releasing energy from the chemical breakdown of aluminum, which is itself produced from the application of notoriously huge amounts of electrical energy to molten bauxite? (Boeing was originally located in the Pacific Northwest due to the availability there of large amounts of hydro-generation to produce aluminum.)
Can someone here possibly factor into this the electrical energy required to produce the aluminum in the first place? At best, wouldn't this invention just be in effect the release the energy "stored" by the refining of the aluminum in the first place? I suspect this is far from being a "free energy" solution, though it might in effect become a sort of secondary battery.
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A'hem..HM, if you broke down Aluminum you'd get a much bigger blast than a Drano bomb.
I do believe the Al (hint: atomic #13), is a catalyst for the release of H2.| ...use an aluminum alloy to extract hydrogen from water ... |
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| Edited by - beskeptigal on 05/18/2007 21:20:29 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 22:03:13 [Permalink]
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Excuse me, Be, I should not have written "chemical breakdown of aluminum." I meant its oxidation, as it takes oxygen from the water molecules, releasing hydrogen. Isn't that what the process is doing, rather than the Al being a "pure," unchanged catalyst?
Cune, that sounds very much like a primary battery to me, though one whose material may be recycled by adding energy. This all reminds me very much of the aluminum-air battery, which has been a difficult goal for many years.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2007 : 23:51:39 [Permalink]
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It takes a boatload of energy to break apart water molecules, whether you do it directly (like electrolysis) or indirectly (like this aluminum deal). So all this scheme is doing is taking the big energy outlay and moving it back a step. In other words, instead of having a huge power plant in your car doing electrolysis on water to get Hydrogen (what a waste that would be), they're putting the big power plant off your car and in a... well... big power plant somewhere.
The addition of massive amounts of energy to split the water stills exists, in this system it just exists in mining and refining the aluminum ore in the first place, and in the "recycling" of the spent aluminum fuel pellets later. The aluminum is just acting like a big battery.
Effectively, what they're proposing is splitting Hydrogen from water, and then recombining that Hydrogen with Oxygen to get the energy they pumped into splitting the water back out. But this sort of thing is dreadfully inefficient, with lots of energy simply getting lost as heat.
So what it boils down to is this: does the net energy storage of 350 pounds of aluminum-gallium pellets, once all the inefficiencies are totalled up, exceed the net energy storage of 350 of the world's best batteries? I suspect it doesn't, and that's why the DOE isn't interested.
Yes, I understand that batteries would also require swapping out the engine and transmission and making lots of other modifications to a car, but those are one-time costs. But ignore that anyway: does the net energy stored in 350 pounds of pellets (plus an unknown quantity of water) meet or exceed the energy stored in 350 pounds of raw hydrogen? Because if modifying an engine to run on hydrogen is so easy, then that would be the benchmark the aluminum system has to beat. There are, of course, safety issues with a 350-pound tank of hydrogen, but are they serious enough to warrant a dramatic reduction in energy efficiency? And, of course, there is very little hydrogen infrastucture around, but there are zero "aluminum stations" in the world.
There are all sorts of factors that need to be considered besides the ones mentioned above. My bet would be that the DOE examined the energy equations of this aluminum system and realized there are already other systems in the works or in existence which exceed the joules-per-gram value of aluminum, whatever it may be.
Because splitting water and then putting it back together again is hard, wasteful work. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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A viable energy source? hydrogen from water..
