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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/31/2007 : 21:52:48
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http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics
A (TO style) list of climate change deniers claims, and the reasons why their claims are nonsense.
I'm sure this will see some use around here.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Edited by - Dude on 05/31/2007 21:53:26
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 22:18:00 [Permalink]
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Dude, do you really need to rely on talking points to make an argument?
Did you see the head of NASA does not agree with the world wide consensus?
What is the standard argument from that list to refute NASA Administrator Michael Griffin when he says:
"To assume that it is a problem is to assume that the state of Earth's climate today is the optimal climate, the best climate that we could have or ever have had and that we need to take steps to make sure that it doesn't change," Griffin said. "I guess I would ask which human beings — where and when — are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings. I think that's a rather arrogant position for people to take."
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3229696&page=1
One should keep an opened mind, like the head of NASA.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2007 : 22:29:50 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dude...list of climate change deniers claims, and the reasons why their claims are nonsense... |
Some well reasoned answers there. Its nice to see the deniers claims addressed and debunked in a convenient list form. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 03:57:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dude, do you really need to rely on talking points to make an argument?
Did you see the head of NASA does not agree with the world wide consensus?
What is the standard argument from that list to refute NASA Administrator Michael Griffin when he says:
"To assume that it is a problem is to assume that the state of Earth's climate today is the optimal climate, the best climate that we could have or ever have had and that we need to take steps to make sure that it doesn't change," Griffin said. "I guess I would ask which human beings — where and when — are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings. I think that's a rather arrogant position for people to take."
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3229696&page=1
One should keep an opened mind, like the head of NASA.
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As i noted over here, your interpretation of Griffin's comments are the complete opposite or reality. Griffin agrees that there's global warming. Indeed, it seems that he agrees that humans are a major cause. However, he thinks that since no one person or group of people has a right to decide "the best climate for all other human beings," then we should just let it run its course. For Griffen, there is global warming; we just shouldn't do anything about it.
So while he may have an open mind to what to do about global warming ("nothing!"), he accepts that it exists. So the standard line, I think, Jerome, is that you have poor reading comprehension skills. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2007 : 05:36:24 [Permalink]
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You should indeed, keep an open mind, Jerome, but not so open that your brains fall out -- Carl Sagan (paraphrased a tad).
In the history of earth, there have been many climates and the inhabitants of the planet have evolved into them. But it's a little different this time; we are adding to and speeding up the cycle, if cycle it be. I say that last because many of the historical changes occured from such events as the Permian Extinction, which is now thought to have been caused by a collision with a comet, and the demise of the dinosaurs, where the crater has actually been found.
But as we are among the causes, we can also be a part of the relief; if we have the will to be.
Incidently, pavement is indeed contributing to climate change. Cities, roads, and other constructs are all heat sinks. The protective insulation of forests, scrub and grasses have been removed. Don't believe it? check out how long the road stays hot under your bare feet after the sun goes down, and compare that to a lawn. And yes, the Saraha and Stone Mountain too, are heat sinks.
Looks like an interesting site, Dude. I'll get into it in depth a little later on. Thanks!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 06:46:17 [Permalink]
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More evidence that you bastards don't read our weekly Skeptic Summary. Dude's link was my evil pick, two weeks ago…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2007 : 07:24:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
More evidence that you bastards don't read our weekly Skeptic Summary. Dude's link was my evil pick, two weeks ago…
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This bastard does; he just didn't open the link. He'll try to mend his ways in the future.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 08:59:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Did you see the head of NASA does not agree with the world wide consensus? |
Did you see that he thinks the consensus assumes there is a problem? Did you know that the problem is a conclusion from the science, and not an assumption? Griffin is changing the question to suit his needs, and then you're taking his fabulously incorrect argument and trolling with it.| One should keep an opened mind, like the head of NASA. |
So why aren't you keeping an open mind? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 18:28:05 [Permalink]
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The head of NASA is "fabulously incorrect"? Maybe he does not agree with the consensus. Would you rather a scientific world in which the consensus shouts down the heretic? That does not seem like good science.
Lets see what the true believers are saying.
"It was a shocking statement because of the level of ignorance it indicated with regard to the current situation,"
"He seemed unaware that 170 nations agreed that climate change is a serious problem with enormous repercussions, and that many people will suffer if it is not addressed,"
"totally clueless" or "a deep anti-global warming ideologue."
“We're dedicated to action. And, in fact, I think the conversation's really moved beyond a statement of the problem.”
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 18:47:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The head of NASA is "fabulously incorrect"? Maybe he does not agree with the consensus. |
It is fabulously incorrect to call a conclusion an assumption, like he did.| Would you rather a scientific world in which the consensus shouts down the heretic? That does not seem like good science. |
This is a case where people with their heads up their butts are trying to shout down the consensus.| Lets see what the true believers are saying. |
Why are you so closed-minded as to call them "true believers?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 20:15:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The head of NASA is "fabulously incorrect"? Maybe he does not agree with the consensus. Would you rather a scientific world in which the consensus shouts down the heretic? That does not seem like good science. |
Seriously. Reading comprehension. It's important. He's incorrect because he's arguing that while global warming is happening, and while humans are a main cause, no one has to right to say if a different climate is or is not superior to the present climate. That's all. You cite him as bucking the consensus, but he's not in terms of there being or not being global warming. All he's saying is that we should just let the earth get hotter. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 20:21:21 [Permalink]
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Cune, what exactly does the consensus agree to?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 23:44:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, what exactly does the consensus agree to? |
If you're unable to answer the questions I asked, perhaps you should rethink your ability to come to any conclusions about any scientific topic. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2007 : 23:56:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, what exactly does the consensus agree to? |
If you're unable to answer the questions I asked, perhaps you should rethink your ability to come to any conclusions about any scientific topic.
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What question Dave? This is the last one you asked.
: "Why are you so closed-minded as to call them "true believers?"
Webster defines true believer as:
1 : a person who professes absolute belief in something
2 : a zealous supporter of a particular cause
How am I closed minded using this term?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2007 : 03:09:03 [Permalink]
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What question Dave? This is the last one you asked.
: "Why are you so closed-minded as to call them "true believers?"
Webster defines true believer as:
1 : a person who professes absolute belief in something
2 : a zealous supporter of a particular cause
How am I closed minded using this term?
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If you are applying it to scientists, you are way wrong. Any scientist that fits your dictionary description will soon find himself driving truck for a living. Or be working for the Discovery Institute, or some other such charlatans. By it's very nature, science must be ready to consider all aspects of a phenomena, however they might influence the research.
Me, I believe in nothing, thereby covering all bases. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/02/2007 03:10:14 |
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How to talk to global warming deniers...
