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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:15:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley, correct because we find no corpse does not prove there are no corpses.
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Sorry, but the absence of a corpse really only establishes that you have a lack of evidence. Using a lack of evidence to support the notion of a large animal living in Loch Ness seems absurd in light of the other problems pointed out by filthy and others. In this case ownership of the burden of proof is yours.
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Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2007 : 11:42:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy asked "what species native to Loch Ness could/would consume the carcass?"
Atlantic Salmon
Charr or Arctic Charr
Eels
Pike
Trout
also, perch, roach, dace, rudd and carp
www.loch-ness.org/fishandothervertebrates.html
Plenty of species capable of eating a large carcass.
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No. That won't do. Those are merely species found in the lake and none of them scavenge, not even the European eel (the same as our American eel, just from a different population).
The dace is a minnow, the carp is vegetarian, the salmon, char, and trout are closely related, and are predators of creatures ranging from insects to small fish, including dace et al., and so forth. In fact, all species you mentioned are very poorly equiped to take apart any carcass in that, with the exception of the pike, they don't have the teeth for it. And pike are active and ferocious predators of small to medium fish, exclusively. They don't scavenge much beyond picking off cripples.
You don't go fishing very often, do you?
The blob is interesting only as an example of floating tissue in advanced decomposition. Here's another interesting example of tissue that floated and, in due course, sank again only to be retrived by a trawler's net, and I am perfectly content not to have been aboard when that stinker was hauled in:
There was a huge dust-up over it, the less-than-thoughtful claiming a plesoisaur and the religiously insane touting it as proof of a young (6,000 year old) earth. It was fun to follow the arguments as they got sillier and sillier. Kent Hovind went to jail still spouting the claim. But at last and alas, few still believe in it, taking much of the joy out of the skeptics day.
I must remind that the oceans are vastly bigger than any puny, little fresh water loch or lake, and they contain scavengers, from sharks to the hags, and not to mention a huge number of crustations, fully capable of dismembering any carcass. They miss a few carcass' now and again, but for the most part, very few make the papers.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 13:58:13 [Permalink]
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Stumbled across this at Cryptomundo. They have up an enhanced version of the video, which looks to me a lot like the orginal but my eyes are elderly, and my spectical perscription is out of date. So whadda I know?
It is interesting to read the comments -- you'll have to scroll down a tad. New Enhanced Nessie VideoPosted by: Loren Coleman on June 6th, 2007
The first two moving gifs are enhancements of the Gordon Holmes Nessie video done by Bill Appleton.
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I'd tell you more, but I don't want to spoil the suprise. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 20:50:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley, correct because we find no corpse does not prove there are no corpses.
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Sorry, but the absence of a corpse really only establishes that you have a lack of evidence. Using a lack of evidence to support the notion of a large animal living in Loch Ness seems absurd in light of the other problems pointed out by filthy and others. In this case ownership of the burden of proof is yours.
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The assertion was made that a corpse would have been found at some time; the fact that a corpse has yet to been found would mean that the animal does not exist.
No, the burden of proof is not on me in this case.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 20:53:02 [Permalink]
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Filthy, most fish eat most anything.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 20:55:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Stumbled across this at Cryptomundo. They have up an enhanced version of the video, which looks to me a lot like the orginal but my eyes are elderly, and my spectical perscription is out of date. So whadda I know?
It is interesting to read the comments -- you'll have to scroll down a tad. New Enhanced Nessie VideoPosted by: Loren Coleman on June 6th, 2007
The first two moving gifs are enhancements of the Gordon Holmes Nessie video done by Bill Appleton.
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I'd tell you more, but I don't want to spoil the suprise.
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It looks like the wake of something moving under the water. this video (we can not see scale) could be something as simple as an otter.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 21:01:53 [Permalink]
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Jerome said:
Filthy, most fish eat most anything.
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Proving once again that you are utterly clueless.
I'd ask you for some evidence, but that would likely be as futile a request as it has been in other threads.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2007 : 22:37:36 [Permalink]
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Dude, I have raised many different types of fish on the scale of thousands. Would you like to dispute my personal experience.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 04:52:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley, correct because we find no corpse does not prove there are no corpses.
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Sorry, but the absence of a corpse really only establishes that you have a lack of evidence. Using a lack of evidence to support the notion of a large animal living in Loch Ness seems absurd in light of the other problems pointed out by filthy and others. In this case ownership of the burden of proof is yours.
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The assertion was made that a corpse would have been found at some time; the fact that a corpse has yet to been found would mean that the animal does not exist.
No, the burden of proof is not on me in this case.
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WTF! And I suspect that you are not even dizzy.
In case you do not know what I mean, which is likely. You went from arguing that "The lack of a corpse does not mean that there are no corpses." to "The lack of a corpse means that the animal (probably) does not exist." |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:00:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy, most fish eat most anything.
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Oh no.... Please don't try and lay that on me.
Just you try to get a pike or a pickerel to attack a carcass, or anything else, as big or bigger than it is. Sheepshead are crab and barnacle specialists. You'll be hard pressed to get one to bite a dough ball, at least not in the sea. Aquarium specimens are often a different story.
And as I stated before, none of the species listed are anything like equipped to dismember a carcass unless it's tissues are softened by decomposition. At which point, even the scavengers will not touch it. The same holds true for terrestrial species such as vultures. At a certain point, they leave it to the blue bottle flies.
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Dude, I have raised many different types of fish on the scale of thousands. Would you like to dispute my personal experience.
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I too, have done the aquarium thing, fairly extensivly, including electric eel, electric catfish, Suriname toad, Osteoglossum bicerosum, and many others, including breeding chiclids and gourmids of various species. I will dispute it.
It is true that under the artificial conditions of an aquarium or a breeding pool, many fish, especially those that have a pretty catholic diet to start with, can be persuaded to eat things, including the innards of each other post mortum, that are not found in their former habitat. However, to state that they will consume 'most anything, is stretching the matter a quite a bit. What that stretch amounts to is that the prisoner eats what the jailer serves him and is damned glad to get it 'cause the alternative is starvation. But the wise aquarist tries to duplicate his charges natural diet, and ends up with healthier specimens that are much more likely to reproduce.
But even in the aquarium specializations show up. Once, when seining bait minnows, I caught a 2" grass pickerel. I put it in the bait bucket and, when I was done fishing, I took it home and set up a spacious tank for it. It was a fun, little fish but I could never get it to eat anything but live, and sometimes cut fish. It went from worms and crickets, to small minnows, to larger minnows and goldfish, to back into Lake Champlain because it was getting to be a nuisance.
While you can get away with feeding a lot of processed food and things like chopped beef heart and turkey gizzard in the tank or pool, you won't see anything like this in the field. There you will find that most species are pretty set in their ways as to their various diets. The reason for this is simply ecological niches. What one species eats regularly, others will avoid due largely to the competition. If you were to toss a couple of pounds of the above-mentioned feeds into, say, a favorable spot in Loch Ness, it would be quickly consumed by the dace and other small stuff. It wouldn't even tempt the others.
No, sorry 'bout that, but it is not conceivable that the species native to Loch Ness could, or would, consume a "monster" carcass.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:21:06 [Permalink]
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| So that's why I couldn't catch bass or brim with peanut butter. Damn! And all this time I thought they just hated me because I'm a godless liberal. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:40:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by pleco
So that's why I couldn't catch bass or brim with peanut butter. Damn! And all this time I thought they just hated me because I'm a godless liberal.
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Exactly right! Godless liberalism will taint the bait every time. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:31:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley, correct because we find no corpse does not prove there are no corpses.
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Sorry, but the absence of a corpse really only establishes that you have a lack of evidence. Using a lack of evidence to support the notion of a large animal living in Loch Ness seems absurd in light of the other problems pointed out by filthy and others. In this case ownership of the burden of proof is yours.
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The assertion was made that a corpse would have been found at some time; the fact that a corpse has yet to been found would mean that the animal does not exist.
No, the burden of proof is not on me in this case.
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WTF! And I suspect that you are not even dizzy.
In case you do not know what I mean, which is likely. You went from arguing that "The lack of a corpse does not mean that there are no corpses." to "The lack of a corpse means that the animal (probably) does not exist."
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Moakley, I think you should read an entire thread and digest its contents before making these sorts of claims.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:35:46 [Permalink]
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Filthy, thanks for that response. I will reevaluate my thinking on the possibilty of carcass consumption in the loch.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:35:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Filthy, thanks for that response. I will reevaluate my thinking on the possibilty of carcass consumption in the loch.
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Excellent. All predators scavenge to a certain extent, provided, as I said earlier, the carrion is reasonably fresh. The first thing to look at is the head and mouth/teeth of the species in question. Is it well set up to eat anything that it cannot swallow whole? Many fish are set up quite well for that, but few are in fresh water. And a good thing, too. My grandkids might have to give up swimming. Next is to look closer at the teeth. Are they sharp, serrated meat-choppers such as sharks have, or long, slender, gripping teeth as found in pike, pickerel, and their relatives? Or just a raspy surface as with pleco's bass & brim?
By their teeth shall you know them. From an errant tooth you can roughly, but with some accuracy, tell the size of the animal, what it's diet is/was and have a pretty good idea of it's method of capturing it's prey. With a little practice, you can even name the species. Indeed, many fossil species are known from little more than teeth.
I'll not get into this any deeper because it's a large subject, and we'd all be bored into a persistent vegetative state before I got to the third page. I'll just advise: the next time you see a fish, or any animal for that matter, look at it in a little more detail than you usually might. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Best evidence ever for the Loch Ness Monster
