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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 00:06:17 [Permalink]
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In the absence of sufficient government regulatory oversight, the corporations failed miserably. The result (which you'd know if you read the links!): | By the end of March, veterinary organizations reported more than 100 pet deaths amongst nearly 500 cases of kidney failure,[1] with one online database self-reporting as many as 3,600 deaths as of April 11. |
Strong evidence for the need of greater regulation, not less!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 04:25:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Outside of the propaganda, Enron took unfair advantage of California's problem, they did not cause the problem.
Cuneiformist,"partially deregulated" is not deregulated it is regulated; this is the cause of the problem. The energy companies could only sell to the consumer at a regulated price. But, the energy companies had to buy on the open market. The energy companies had to sell energy for less than they payed thus going into debt and became unable to purchase more energy to service the consumers.
Take the time to understand what happened, headlines do not tell the story. |
Your condescending attitude is particularly annoying. In any event, you're correct that "partially deregulated" doesn't mean "un-regulated." Moreover, the arguments for how and why California's energy crisis happened are complex, and two untrained economists without access to all the data aren't going to come to any real conclusions here on this forum. Nevertheless, I would still argue that limiting the amount of regulation allowed Enron and other companies to manipulate the market (in admittedly illegal ways). To suggest that regulation per se was the cause of the crisis fails to answer the question of how it was that, when there was more regulation, there was no such crisis. If there were even less regulation, the high prices would have been simply passed on the the consumer.
As Paul Krugman, one of the country's leading economists and an op-ed writer for the New York Times wrote in an August 17, 2001 piece entitled "Reckonings; Enron Goes Overboard,"| True believers insist that the power crisis of 2000-2001, which transferred tens of billions of dollars from taxpayers to electricity-generating companies -- and quite a bit to Enron too -- was not a verdict on deregulation, that it was all the fault of meddling politicians who didn't let the market work. But this claim isn't particularly convincing, mainly because it isn't true. The real lesson of the California catastrophe was that the concerns that led to regulation in the first place -- monopoly power and the threat of market manipulation -- are still real issues today. |
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| Edited by - Cuneiformist on 06/07/2007 04:33:11 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:16:46 [Permalink]
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Here's something more out of China.
| The pet food producers are not showing a lot of fear of the consequences for failing to report to the FDA. That says what it says and explains part of the problem, which is that the FDA has become a weakened organization that has no teeth and will fail to take action. Is it asking too much to equip the FDA with more staff and impose much more serious consequences for violations like this? Considering the end result can be death for consumers, this hardly seems out of order. |
This whole thing is turning into a major headache for everybody concerned.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:54:08 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Again, Why is it cheaper to purchase corn and wheat from China? The American government has direct constitutional authority to levy tariffs. Why is wheat and corn cheaper from China across the ocean than wheat and corn grown in America? |
The answer is it isn't cheaper. The corn you buy at the market was probably grown here.
The Chinese, however, have made a large investment in the “ingredients” market to compete with us in areas outside of china. We have not kept pace with them in that area, so they are sometimes able to offer “ingredients” at a lower cost. They know they can't compete in our country, the largest grower of corn, for the corn you buy to cook and eat. So they came up with another market strategy.
We are not importing corn or wheat from China. We are importing “ingredients” made from corn and wheat, which is another story.
As usual, you have jumped to a bogus conclusion. That is, we buy ingredients from China, therefore the “source” for those “ingredients” is cheaper for import.
You have once again removed all market complications from your assumption and in doing so have once again come to a wrong conclusion.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is
simple, neat, and wrong."
--Henry L. Mencken
Mencken seems to have understood your kind of thinking Jerome
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:53:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
In the absence of sufficient government regulatory oversight, the corporations failed miserably. The result (which you'd know if you read the links!): | By the end of March, veterinary organizations reported more than 100 pet deaths amongst nearly 500 cases of kidney failure,[1] with one online database self-reporting as many as 3,600 deaths as of April 11. |
Strong evidence for the need of greater regulation, not less!
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Do you have any idea how many pets die of kidney failure? Self reporting; while some may be from the tainted food, much was likely the result of other causes.
100 deaths out of how many animals that consumed the product? This is an incredibly small percentage. Menu Foods had the opportunity to hide this as the sickness and death rates were low in comparison to the amount of foods on the market. The point is it could have been handled very poorly and the company chose to take a big reputation hit and a big financial hit. When was the last time the government admitted regulations caused a problem and solved it asap?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 14:59:31 [Permalink]
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Cune, you used Krugman to make your point with this quote?
"that it was all the fault of meddling politicians who didn't let the market work. But this claim isn't particularly convincing, mainly because it isn't true."
Cune, you said yourself that regulations were in place. You are contradicting the man you quoted to support your ideas.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:07:03 [Permalink]
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Kil, why did the American government allow processed wheat and corn to be imported when we have lots of processing plants in the U.S.? A large portion for dog food makers use the American ingredients. Why is the American government allowing cheap competition to come from abroad from unknown companies?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:24:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, you used Krugman to make your point with this quote?
"that it was all the fault of meddling politicians who didn't let the market work. But this claim isn't particularly convincing, mainly because it isn't true."
Cune, you said yourself that regulations were in place. You are contradicting the man you quoted to support your ideas. |
Huh? You aren't making sense. The argument was that with less regulation, markets would make everything better. They didn't. And Krugman was pointing out that counter-arguments-- that they would have worked were it not for "meddling politicians" fail. How can you read that any differently? |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 15:34:32 [Permalink]
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Krugman said that the market was allowed to work without regulation.
Cune said there was regulation.
Cune, please explain how both of these are true and support one another.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 20:56:06 [Permalink]
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It's all here Jerome.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, why did the American government allow processed wheat and corn to be imported when we have lots of processing plants in the U.S.? A large portion for dog food makers use the American ingredients. Why is the American government allowing cheap competition to come from abroad from unknown companies?
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The FDA is understaffed. We have already talked about that.
Are you asking why the government allows companies to buy in a free market? Hmmmm…? Are you asking why there wasn't more regulation? Good. So we agree. 
As Imports Increase, a Tense Dependence on China
From the NPR article:
The FDA normally inspects about 1 percent of all food and food ingredients at U.S. borders. It does tests on about half of 1 percent.
And official vigilance has been going down — for two reasons.
First, food imports have increased dramatically, from $45 billion in 2003 to $64 billion three years later.
Second, the "food" part of the FDA has been getting smaller.
Shaun Kennedy of the National Center for Food Protection and Defense says no country is increasing its food exports faster than China.
"China has increased overall its food imports to the United States by over 20 percent in the last year alone," Kennedy says. "Going back three years, we have doubled our agricultural inputs from China."
China has become the leading supplier of many food ingredients, such as apple juice, a primary sweetener in many foods; garlic and garlic powder, a major flavor agent; sausage casings and cocoa butter.
China now supplies 80 percent of the world's ascorbic acid — vitamin C. It's used as a preservative and nutritional enriching agent in thousands of foods. One-third of the world's vitamin A now comes from China, along with much of the supply of vitamin B-12 and many health-food supplements, such as the amino acid lysine.
That is no accident. Chinese manufacturers have tried to corner the market in many food ingredients by under-pricing other suppliers. |
And
Leo Hepner, a food-ingredient consultant based in London, says vitamin C is a good example.
"The price in 1995 was $15 per kilogram," Hepner says. "Today, the price from China is $3.50."
No one can compete with that. So most Western producers of vitamin C have shut down. |
Expect products that contain wheat gluten to go up in price, by the way. American producers who had pretty much stopped making the product (even though some of them were buying it from China and re-selling to US food manufacturers) because they couldn't compete with China's undercutting of prices, to create a niche market, are gearing up again. And they promise it will cost the consumer more.
MGPI to triple wheat gluten production
| According to MGPI, the firm has the largest installed vital wheat gluten capacity in the US, but has curtailed the use of this capacity in recent years due to increas |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 21:10:47 [Permalink]
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Kil, the American government has the authority and the obligation to protect from foreign trade undercutting an American industry.
I know from personal experience that plenty of pet foods are produced with American made grain "ingredients".
Did you get that Kil, American government failed to protect an American industry.
You have yet to answer:
Why would the American government allow cheap imports of unknown grain products into the market at the determent of American companies?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 21:48:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, the American government has the authority and the obligation to protect from foreign trade undercutting an American industry. |
You're arguing, Jerome, that the government has an obligation to interfere with the rights of individuals? Free market be damned, I suppose, if it's not an American free market? Is that what the situation is with you?
Also, I'd really like to know what law created this "obligation" of which you speak. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 22:06:51 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Did you get that Kil, American government failed to protect an American industry.
You have yet to answer. |
Bullshit. I have answered that several times already.
Edited to add:
Oh wait. Ha! You're against free trade!
Plus, you have changed the subject again, just as I predicted you would…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 03:12:32 [Permalink]
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I've noticed that logic-wise, Jerome resembles Dr. Egnor. Sign errors in all the syllogisms.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 05:36:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Krugman said that the market was allowed to work without regulation.
Cune said there was regulation.
Cune, please explain how both of these are true and support one another. |
It's called revisionist history and selective memory. I quoted Krugman as saying in part that| True believers insist that the power crisis of 2000-2001, which transferred tens of billions of dollars from taxpayers to electricity-generating companies -- and quite a bit to Enron too -- was not a verdict on deregulation, that it was all the fault of meddling politicians who didn't let the market work. But this claim isn't particularly convincing, mainly because it isn't true. |
they key word here is deregulation. However, as you rightly noted, the deregulation here meant "partly deregulated" and not "free of regulation." I agreed. And obviously, Krugman would, too. We'd both say that regulations were relaxed, and the evidence suggests that companies like Enron were able to take advantage of the less-regulated environment to manipulate the market, leading to the energy crisis. |
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Fakery Turns Fatal: China...
