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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2007 : 06:57:37 [Permalink]
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Cune, Enron did not cause the problems in California, they stepped in after the problems and took advantage.
If you sell apples as a buinsness.
The government requires that you sell apples for no more than $1 each.
The market wholesale price of apples increases to 2$ each.
How long would you be able to sell apples?
This is what the California government did.
Curious that partial deregulation is claimed deregulation.
Keep in mind my state also partially deregulated after seeing what happened in California; lo and behold the government is blaming price increases on regulated deregulation.
Calling something that it is not for the purpose of educating a population that deregulation is bad has been both intentional and done with malice.
Unless you believe that poltitions on the east coast did not read the papers about what happened on the west coast.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:01:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, the American government has the authority and the obligation to protect from foreign trade undercutting an American industry. |
You're arguing, Jerome, that the government has an obligation to interfere with the rights of individuals? Free market be damned, I suppose, if it's not an American free market? Is that what the situation is with you?
Also, I'd really like to know what law created this "obligation" of which you speak.
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The Constitution.
The federal government has the authority and obligation to prevent foreign trade from harming American interests.
I believe in sovereignty.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:05:27 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, thanks for the word syllogisms. I understood the concept, but did not know the word.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 07:13:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
Did you get that Kil, American government failed to protect an American industry.
You have yet to answer. |
Bullshit. I have answered that several times already.
Edited to add:
Oh wait. Ha! You're against free trade!
Plus, you have changed the subject again, just as I predicted you would…
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I am for American government protecting its sovereignty. Allowing a foreign business to undermine an American business undermines the sovereignty.
You have explained why the FDA did not inspect the imports; not why the American governmnet allows Chinese food products to undercut American business.
This is proper extrapolation of the topic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 08:54:30 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
The Constitution.
The federal government has the authority and obligation to prevent foreign trade from harming American interests.
I believe in sovereignty. |
Where does the constitution obligate government protection from foreign business to not out compete domestic business on our shores?
What does sovereignty mean in this context?
Again, I believe you are making shit up as you go along…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:37:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Cune, Enron did not cause the problems in California, they stepped in after the problems and took advantage.
If you sell apples as a buinsness.
The government requires that you sell apples for no more than $1 each.
The market wholesale price of apples increases to 2$ each.
How long would you be able to sell apples?
This is what the California government did. |
No, it's not.
Curious that partial deregulation is claimed deregulation.
Keep in mind my state also partially deregulated after seeing what happened in California; lo and behold the government is blaming price increases on regulated deregulation. |
Not curious at all. After all, wholesale prices were deregulated. No doubt some cumbersome expression could have been used to describe the situation, and reporters, executives, and politicians could have repeatedly used it, but after awhile, that might get cumbersome.
| Calling something that it is not for the purpose of educating a population that deregulation is bad has been both intentional and done with malice. |
Welcome to the 21st century, Jerome.
In any case, I'm not sure what your argument is. If it's "regulation is bad" then you're at a loss to explain how a might tightly-regulated market before 2001 didn't experience the same types of problems. And of you're trying to argue that less regulation would be better, you'd have to get into a more technical discussion than one I'm going to be able to follow. And if you think that the situation as it happened was bad, well, duh. Thanks for sharing. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 11:47:09 [Permalink]
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| Cune, Enron did not cause the problems in California, they stepped in after the problems and took advantage. |
Bullshit, there are tapes of the scumbags at enron telling plants to go offline to cause rolling blackouts and inflate the price of energy.
Scumbags
Assholes
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
| Edited by - furshur on 06/08/2007 17:21:26 |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 12:29:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| Cune, Enron did not cause the problems in California, they stepped in after the problems and took advantage. |
Bullshit, there are tapes of the scumbags at enron telling plants to go offline to cause rolling blackouts and inflate the price of energy.
Scumbags
Assholes
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His mind is made up - don't confuse him with facts. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 12:50:03 [Permalink]
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| edit: Oops I replied to the first page thinking it was new... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 06/08/2007 12:52:32 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 15:35:03 [Permalink]
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The link is broken because of a carriage-return on the URL forum code.
Try this link instead. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:08:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The Constitution.
The federal government has the authority and obligation to prevent foreign trade from harming American interests.
I believe in sovereignty. |
Which article would that be covered by? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 17:23:44 [Permalink]
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Thank you Dr. Mabuse! I noticed the slash when I copied the link but did not realize it would be a problem. I fixed the link.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 19:16:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| Cune, Enron did not cause the problems in California, they stepped in after the problems and took advantage. |
Bullshit, there are tapes of the scumbags at enron telling plants to go offline to cause rolling blackouts and inflate the price of energy.
Scumbags
Assholes
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Nice links; they confirm what I stated. Enron took advantage of a problem; they did not cause the problem, they did exacerbate it.
This is what the governmnet regulators caused: Southern California Edison (SCE) and Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) were buying from a spot market at very high prices but were unable to raise retail rates. PG&E and SoCalEd had racked up $20 Billion in debt by Spring of 2001
Can you explain how Enron put SCE and PG&E in this situation?
I will tell you, its because the regulations prevented them from selling energy to the consumer at a market rate.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 19:27:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The Constitution.
The federal government has the authority and obligation to prevent foreign trade from harming American interests.
I believe in sovereignty. |
Which article would that be covered by?
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Preamble
promote the general Welfare
article 1 section 8
1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes
Authority and obligation!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 22:37:38 [Permalink]
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Preamble
promote the general Welfare
article 1 section 8
1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes
Authority and obligation! |
The idea of promoting the general welfare is what a constitution for any nation should be about. However, the best way to promote the general welfare is subject to opinion. One persons idea of what is best for the most people may be held in strong opposition to those who hold another view of what is the best way to achieve that goal. The preamble laid out the goal. It's a worthy and necessary goal when making laws, and yet just about any law will piss off at least some segment of the population. The obligation “to promote the general welfare” in the preamble was to create the best system of government they could, and do it for the common good.
Article 1 section 8 is about who will do what. In this case the power to levy federal taxes, tarrifs, duties and such falls to the legislative branch of government. It's important to note that this is a centralization of power. This: “but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States” pretty much limits what states can do in that area. It also gives congress the sole authority to raise money for a military.
Congress is also given the sole authority to regulate commerce. That's to say that congressional approval must precede any federal regulation and supercedes any state regulation.
So what we have here Jerome is part of the enumeration of the federal powers to govern, granted to the legislative branch, and an obligation to promote the general welfare, that being a matter of opinion…
It says nothing about protecting companies from foreign competition if that competition is seen as promoting the general welfare.
There is plenty of debate about free trade, as there should be. But free trade is not unconstitutional.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Fakery Turns Fatal: China...
