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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2007 : 09:38:10 [Permalink]
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Siberia said:
| On Robb's defense, he never said he was for outlawing flag burning - only that it makes his blood boil. |
I know.
He shouldn't be upset by it though. It should make him happy to see a fellow citizen burning or desecrating a US flag. It is an affirmation of everything the US flag represents that we can burn, spit on, step on, and otherwise be disrespectfull to our flag.
The ultra-nationalist mindset that places the country and it's symbols ahead of personal freedoms (like free speech) is wrong. The people who cheer when laws like the Nebraska law are passed don't really care about the values this country was founded on. And if Robb really cared, was truly invested in the most positive aspects of this country, then he wouldn't be pissed off by seeing a flag destroyed in protest.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 10:28:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Siberia said:
| On Robb's defense, he never said he was for outlawing flag burning - only that it makes his blood boil. |
I know.
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My bad. I see what you meant now, and agree. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 15:12:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
From Wikipedia: Today, defacing a flag is an act of protected speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, as established in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).
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So, this is where National law trumps State law?
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No, it is still legal to deface the american flag. If an ammendment to the constitution is ratified then this case would be trumped.
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I thought I just said that. At least, I intended to imply it. My question was supposed to get clarification from you that the Nebraska Flag desecration law currently is (or should be considered) unconstitutional. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:44:47 [Permalink]
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Mab said:| My question was supposed to get clarification from you that the Nebraska Flag desecration law currently is (or should be considered) unconstitutional. |
Yeah.
States can pass any stupid ass law they like. If it gets challenged then the courts can determine if it is in violation of the constitution. The anti-flag desecration laws, like Nebraska's, are very likely (even with the current court, even Scalia voted in favor of Larry Flynt against Falwell when the topic was free speech) going to violate the right of free speech.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 06/09/2007 21:45:39 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 07:49:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I thought I just said that. At least, I intended to imply it. My question was supposed to get clarification from you that the Nebraska Flag desecration law currently is (or should be considered) unconstitutional.
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Ok I misunderstood. I think it should be declared unconstitutional. People have the right to burn a flag if they want for any reason without reprisal from the government. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 06/11/2007 07:56:46 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 07:51:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I thought I just said that. At least, I intended to imply it. My question was supposed to get clarification from you that the Nebraska Flag desecration law currently is (or should be considered) unconstitutional.
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Ok I misunderstood. I think it should be declared unconstitutional. People have the right to burn a flag if they want for any reason without reprisal from the government.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
| Edited by - Robb on 06/11/2007 07:56:11 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 08:40:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
And if Robb really cared, was truly invested in the most positive aspects of this country, then he wouldn't be pissed off by seeing a flag destroyed in protest. |
It is because of the positive aspects of this country, mainly the idealism of our freedoms, that gives me an emotional reaction to people that would want to burn the flag. There is plenty that I do not like about this country but at some point I need to balance that with the good of this country as well. I take the time that when I see a US flag to think of the positives of this country. It symbolizes what this country could ideally be to me. I do not require this of anybody else.
If people want to protest against Iraq, taxes, infringes on their freedoms etc. they can do that by other means. If they want the US to not exist then they can burn or wipe their ass with the flag. This is just my opinion. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 09:22:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dude
And if Robb really cared, was truly invested in the most positive aspects of this country, then he wouldn't be pissed off by seeing a flag destroyed in protest. |
It is because of the positive aspects of this country, mainly the idealism of our freedoms, that gives me an emotional reaction to people that would want to burn the flag. There is plenty that I do not like about this country but at some point I need to balance that with the good of this country as well. I take the time that when I see a US flag to think of the positives of this country. It symbolizes what this country could ideally be to me. I do not require this of anybody else.
If people want to protest against Iraq, taxes, infringes on their freedoms etc. they can do that by other means. If they want the US to not exist then they can burn or wipe their ass with the flag. This is just my opinion. |
Just to toss in my 2 cents:
Dude, how would you feel if you saw somebody defacing a photograph of someone important to you; say, your mother. Can you now understand and accept the revulsion felt by Robb when he witnesses somebody defacing the US flag?
Though it is not an exact analogy, it is the same in principle. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 09:50:33 [Permalink]
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I was doing a little background on this topic when I ran across the following in Wikipedia:
| It is illegal in Denmark, under section 110 (e) of the Danish penal code, to desecrate the flags or national symbols of foreign nations, while legal to burn the Dannebrog, Denmark's national flag. The Folketing's reasoning is as follows: the burning of foreign flags falls into the realm of foreign policy, as the burning of another country's flag could be understood as a threat to that country. |
That's pretty cool. |
If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 09:56:30 [Permalink]
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| Dude, how would you feel if you saw somebody defacing a photograph of someone important to you; say, your mother. Can you now understand and accept the revulsion felt by Robb when he witnesses somebody defacing the US flag? |
Hopefully, we can get past the point where we legislate by "feeling."
My mother will be fine, or not, regardless of whether or not someone defaces her picture, and the country will be fine, or not, regardless of what someone does to the flag.
People seem more concerned about symbols than they do with reality. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 10:14:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Hopefully, we can get past the point where we legislate by "feeling." |
I agree, with the stipulation that we should never have legislated by "feeling." Though I understand that we have before, and likely will again, we gladly do not make it a habit. | My mother will be fine, or not, regardless of whether or not someone defaces her picture, and the country will be fine, or not, regardless of what someone does to the flag. |
That is exactly why my analogy works. | People seem more concerned about symbols than they do with reality. |
Is this comment directed at anybody in particular, or is it just rhetoric?
I am not sure if you think anybody here is advocating a law banning flag desecration; I assure you I advocate no such thing, and Robb has also stated such. |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 10:44:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Just to toss in my 2 cents:
Dude, how would you feel if you saw somebody defacing a photograph of someone important to you; say, your mother. Can you now understand and accept the revulsion felt by Robb when he witnesses somebody defacing the US flag?
Though it is not an exact analogy, it is the same in principle. |
I see your point, B10, but personally I think the only reaction I'd have is "you've got issues; get help." I might have more of a reaction if someone burned a really nice picture of [of a family member, girlfriend or group of friends or something] if it were irreplaceable or some such, but not because of my emotional attachment to my [family member, girlfriend or group of friends or something], but because it's a really nice picture that's hard to replace! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:43:05 [Permalink]
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| That is exactly why my analogy works. |
Guess I don't understand your point. I thought you were making some point that how someone feels is germaine to the discussion. My bad. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:46:51 [Permalink]
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But let's not forget the reaction that Sinead O'Connor got by ripping up photos of the Pope.
For many people, a symbol is in many ways identical to the thing it symbolizes. Destroying a photo of the Pope is a metaphor for a desire to see the elimination of the Roman Catholic Church.
If burning the flag means nothing more than "I wanted to burn a flag," then the act is in no way a protest and could probably have been successfully and Constitutionally banned long ago for the public hazard a small, hard-to-control fire presents. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Defending Phelps
