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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2007 : 09:35:19 [Permalink]
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I guess when I see the flag I do think primarily of the good things about this country and the ideals we strive for. I think it is wise for all of us to reflect on the good as well as the bad that the US does.
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People do constructive things, and they do destructive things. Most of the destructive things (some parts of) the U.S. has done is with the flag flying, and lots of talk about God and Freedom. Much of what has been done that is constructive has been done against (parts of) the government trying to increase its power and the wealth of a few at the expense of the many.
It's fine to think of the good things when you look at the flag. First, take a dozen of them and wipe your ass with them and burn and stomp on them. Then we can get over the sacredness of a piece of cloth, and focus on what's important. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/08/2007 09:36:41 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:21:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I guess when I see the flag I do think primarily of the good things about this country and the ideals we strive for. I think it is wise for all of us to reflect on the good as well as the bad that the US does.
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People do constructive things, and they do destructive things. Most of the destructive things (some parts of) the U.S. has done is with the flag flying, and lots of talk about God and Freedom. Much of what has been done that is constructive has been done against (parts of) the government trying to increase its power and the wealth of a few at the expense of the many.
It's fine to think of the good things when you look at the flag. First, take a dozen of them and wipe your ass with them and burn and stomp on them. Then we can get over the sacredness of a piece of cloth, and focus on what's important.
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I know you think it is silly to actually claim that the US has done some good. I know your hatred of the US runs deep. And I agree that we have done things that are horrible (slavery, native americans, internment camps etc.) but this has been the most benevolent country to ever exist. Alot of things like slavery, minority rights were changed because of our freedom to demonstrate and call the government and society to account for wrongs. We saw how that went over in China a while back (not good). Many people in the world cannot say a bad word about their government and not expect retribution unlike yourself.
We get too caught up in the negatives and every once in a while we need to remember the good in this country. I use the opportunity when I see the flag to do this. Stomp all you want on it, I will not stop you but I will never be part of it.
I hope Gorgo that you are trying to change the things you are unhappy about and not just complaining. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:28:46 [Permalink]
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| I know you think it is silly to actually claim that the US has done some good. |
I just said that some of the people of the U.S. have done some contructive things, and some of the people of the U.S. have done some destructive things. What word did I use that you didn't understand?
In what sentence did I use the word 'hate?' I hate nothing.
I suppose you think it's silly to claim that anyone has done destructive things? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/08/2007 10:30:12 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:31:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| I know you think it is silly to actually claim that the US has done some good. |
I just said that some of the people of the U.S. have done some contructive things, and some of the people of the U.S. have done some destructive things. What word did I use that you didn't understand?
In what sentence did I use the word 'hate?' I hate nothing.
I suppose you think it's silly to claim that anyone has done destructive things?
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Ok your right, I apologize. Have a great weekend. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 10:36:52 [Permalink]
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We saw how that went over in China a while back (not good). Many people in the world cannot say a bad word about their government and not expect retribution unlike yourself.
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This is true. This was done at a great cost, however. I'm not talking about the U.S. attacking Vietnam or Yugoslavia, I'm talking about at great cost within the country. Many people died and suffered fighting those in power to get it. It was not given by the military attacking Vietnam or Korea or Yugoslavia or Iraq or killing Indians, etc. while people waved the flag and talked about how God was behind them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 11:04:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
...but this has been the most benevolent country to ever exist. |
Uh-hu. To its citizens, maybe. I agree the U.S. has done a lot of good for the world, but to call it the most benevolent country, ever, is a bit too much for my third-world-country-born mind. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 11:10:59 [Permalink]
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Yes, Central and South Americans are all rich and healthy now thanks to U.S. benevolence, right?
Yeah, even the Marshall Plan which certainly had its good aspects, was largely about fighting what the population of the country wanted to make sure that markets were open for the exploitation of US companies.
I think much of foreign aid is about the same thing. That's not all bad, certainly. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 06/08/2007 11:13:21 |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 14:27:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I know you think it is silly to actually claim that the US has done some good. I know your hatred of the US runs deep. And I agree that we have done things that are horrible (slavery, native americans, internment camps etc.) but this has been the most benevolent country to ever exist. Alot of things like slavery, minority rights were changed because of our freedom to demonstrate and call the government and society to account for wrongs. We saw how that went over in China a while back (not good). Many people in the world cannot say a bad word about their government and not expect retribution unlike yourself.
We get too caught up in the negatives and every once in a while we need to remember the good in this country. I use the opportunity when I see the flag to do this. Stomp all you want on it, I will not stop you but I will never be part of it.
I hope Gorgo that you are trying to change the things you are unhappy about and not just complaining.
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I agree the US has done a lot of good things. However, concerning the abolishment of slavery and rights for minorities the US was NOT ahead of many countries. Plus, SOME other countries have problems... BIG PROBLEMS. But they´re not MOST countries in the world as you claim.
Another thing is that US governments often claim to be the keepers of peace of the world, the leaders in all sorts of freedoms and human rights. And when you claim such a thing, you have to have an almost inmaculate record so as not to create the illusion that you are being hypocritical. And that´s where a lot of the hatred for the US government comes from.
Also, you can´t claim all that about US and then support a dictatorial regime abroad as it often happened. (not you personally but the government).
That said, it is true you shouldn´t forget about the good thing as you shouldn´t forget about the bad.
Cheers.
perro de tokio |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:15:59 [Permalink]
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From Wikipedia: Today, defacing a flag is an act of protected speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, as established in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).
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So, this is where National law trumps State law? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:17:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by perrodetokio
I agree the US has done a lot of good things. However, concerning the abolishment of slavery and rights for minorities the US was NOT ahead of many countries. Plus, SOME other countries have problems... BIG PROBLEMS. But they´re not MOST countries in the world as you claim. |
I agree we were not ahead of other countries however I was trying to make the point that we have the ability to affect change without government retribution.
| Another thing is that US governments often claim to be the keepers of peace of the world, the leaders in all sorts of freedoms and human rights. And when you claim such a thing, you have to have an almost inmaculate record so as not to create the illusion that you are being hypocritical. And that´s where a lot of the hatred for the US government comes from. |
All governments are hypocritical at times. They do things for their own interest alot of times. I do not claim that the US has not supported oppressive governments or given money to these regimes. I do make the claim though that the US gives more charity than any other country that exists today in many different forms. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2006/66060.htm.
| Also, you can´t claim all that about US and then support a dictatorial regime abroad as it often happened. (not you personally but the government). |
Are you saying that because we have supported dictorial regimes in the past that all the good the US has done should not count somehow?
| That said, it is true you shouldn´t forget about the good thing as you shouldn´t forget about the bad. |
Agreed, We should never just harp on one side all the time.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 16:23:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
From Wikipedia: Today, defacing a flag is an act of protected speech under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, as established in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), and reaffirmed in U.S. v. Eichman, 496 U.S. 310 (1990).
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So, this is where National law trumps State law?
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No, it is still legal to deface the american flag. If an ammendment to the constitution is ratified then this case would be trumped. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 20:00:24 [Permalink]
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Robb, think of flag burning/desecration like this:
This country was funded by people who dissented from their lawfull government. (the reasons are many, and mostly good ones, but not relevent to my point)
They tried to make sure that all US citizens would retain the right to dissent. They made free speech the new law of he land.
So ask yourself this: What is a greater desecration? Burning a flag or restricting the right to free speech and expression? Which of those things is more important? The symbol or the actual thing that symbol represents?
It is an act of tyranny to make a law that forbids destroying a US flag. It violates the first ammendment, and it dishonors all those who have sacrificed their lives (and more) to ensure that we have the right to speak our minds. They didn't do it for the symbol, they did it to protect what that symbol stands for.
When you see a US citizen burning or in some other way desecrating a US flag, you should think to yourself,"Gotta love it. Its awesome to live in a country where I can do that and not be imprisoned or executed."
To quote Lenny Bruce, "Take away the right to say FUCK, and you take away the right to say FUCK THE GOVERNMENT!"
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2007 : 21:05:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Robb, think of flag burning/desecration like this:
This country was funded by people who dissented from their lawfull government. (the reasons are many, and mostly good ones, but not relevent to my point)
They tried to make sure that all US citizens would retain the right to dissent. They made free speech the new law of he land.
So ask yourself this: What is a greater desecration? Burning a flag or restricting the right to free speech and expression? Which of those things is more important? The symbol or the actual thing that symbol represents?
It is an act of tyranny to make a law that forbids destroying a US flag. It violates the first ammendment, and it dishonors all those who have sacrificed their lives (and more) to ensure that we have the right to speak our minds. They didn't do it for the symbol, they did it to protect what that symbol stands for.
When you see a US citizen burning or in some other way desecrating a US flag, you should think to yourself,"Gotta love it. Its awesome to live in a country where I can do that and not be imprisoned or executed."
To quote Lenny Bruce, "Take away the right to say FUCK, and you take away the right to say FUCK THE GOVERNMENT!"
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Dude, we are on the same page. (even if you can't believe it)
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 07:45:33 [Permalink]
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On Robb's defense, he never said he was for outlawing flag burning - only that it makes his blood boil. The same way I'm against psychics but not vying to outlaw their practice...
As for charity, well, we've covered that in the past, didn't we? That the U.S. does more charity than any other country, only, proportionally, it's also the most powerful country in the world, no other country has the capacity the U.S. has for doing charity? I can't really see, say, Brazil doing much charity - when it can't even help itself to leave it's 500 years old sinkhole. Or China, for all that matters.
Which does not erase the intent of doing charity - yes, it's good it does charity, great, thank you, but that doesn't erase the fact half the rest of the continent would probably be better without its, ah, 'help', either.
Me, I'd rather think no country is good or bad - just countries, with people in it, inherently flawed people, protecting their own interests and, sometimes, their own people - just like every single tribe that emerged in this beloved mudball. Only, some countries defend their own interests more forcefully than others, y'know, like the U.S... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 06/09/2007 07:47:38 |
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Defending Phelps
