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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2007 : 16:34:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
Why compare Marx and Engel to America at its inception? The constitution was made elastic deliberately. America now is not the America it was. So why compare a theory to a country that no longer is? What real purpose is served to compare a theory to a thing that does not exist?
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This is the exact point, to compare what America was designed to be, and how through time it has progressively become a de facto communist state.
Yes, the "constitution was made elastic deliberately"; the question becomes have the powers of change in the constitution been used to progress towards communism or has it occurred by other means. How many constitutional laws are violated without recourse that conform to the communist standards?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 17:30:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
This is the exact point, to compare what America was designed to be, and how through time it has progressively become a de facto communist state. |
Except is hasn't and isn't. No matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:03:39 [Permalink]
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Pleco, I do love the bomb!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:06:58 [Permalink]
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Gee another fascinating topic by our resident troll..
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:07:35 [Permalink]
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All of the 10 tenets outlined as a communist state are to one degree or another part of current American society.
I thought this would be an interesting discussion. Just because one is told one lives in a democracy does not mean one does. In fact this nation was established as a republic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 19:10:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
Gee another fascinating topic by our resident troll..
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Attempting to engage in thought provoking discussion is not trolling.
Thanks as always for your insightful commentary.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 20:25:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
All of the 10 tenets outlined as a communist state are to one degree or another part of current American society.
I thought this would be an interesting discussion. Just because one is told one lives in a democracy does not mean one does. In fact this nation was established as a republic. |
Well, the key is "to one degree to another" isn't it? You can't on the one hand note that the communist manifesto called for an "abolition of all rights of inheritance," and on the other hand note that there is an inheritance tax and think that any sane person is going to think that your argument is compelling. You might as well argue similarity based on that fact that both communists and free market democracy-loving Americans both breath oxygen. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2007 : 21:10:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
All of the 10 tenets outlined as a communist state are to one degree or another part of current American society.
I thought this would be an interesting discussion. Just because one is told one lives in a democracy does not mean one does. In fact this nation was established as a republic. |
Well, the key is "to one degree to another" isn't it? You can't on the one hand note that the communist manifesto called for an "abolition of all rights of inheritance," and on the other hand note that there is an inheritance tax and think that any sane person is going to think that your argument is compelling. You might as well argue similarity based on that fact that both communists and free market democracy-loving Americans both breath oxygen.
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One must read the manifesto in its entirety in understand that becoming a communist state is a process. When one looks at the evolution of America in the last 100 years it correlates.
You surely would not argue that evolution is a quick process.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 05:29:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Cuneiformist
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
All of the 10 tenets outlined as a communist state are to one degree or another part of current American society.
I thought this would be an interesting discussion. Just because one is told one lives in a democracy does not mean one does. In fact this nation was established as a republic. |
Well, the key is "to one degree to another" isn't it? You can't on the one hand note that the communist manifesto called for an "abolition of all rights of inheritance," and on the other hand note that there is an inheritance tax and think that any sane person is going to think that your argument is compelling. You might as well argue similarity based on that fact that both communists and free market democracy-loving Americans both breath oxygen.
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One must read the manifesto in its entirety in understand that becoming a communist state is a process. When one looks at the evolution of America in the last 100 years it correlates.
You surely would not argue that evolution is a quick process. |
No, I wouldn't. But if a thing X is slowly "evolving" into a thing Y, that does not mean that X is a de facto Y.
You can argue either one or the other, but NOT both. But since you never actually put forward any arguments that make sense and are in any way tenable, you're forced to move the goalposts and claim that you're right. It was kind of fun the first two or three times you did it, but now it's just boring. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 07:34:45 [Permalink]
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A spectre is haunting America. But it ain't Communism.
Jerome, to the degree that changes and reforms in the US since the Constitution was first ratified resemble the Communist Manifesto in your mind, consider that some of those changes might (gasp!) be good ones. Karl Marx would not have had such long-lasting effect upon society if he had not pointed out a few of the abuses of unregulated 19th Century capitalism when he and Friedrich Engels wrote that document in 1848. Hell, Charles Dickens described the plight of the 19th Century poor, too, one difference being that Dickens didn't even propose an impractical solution.
Indeed, Presidents Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson seemed to understand that capitalism needed to be reformed if it were to survive the massive Socialist movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Their, and other, reforms IMO probably prevented a Marxist revolution.
But I fail to see any significant parallels between the governance of the US and the Communist Manifesto. Indeed, there are few parallels between that tract and actual "Communist" governments.
Once again, it's all in your ill-informed, paranoia filled mind. The subject of this topic is delusional hogwash.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/10/2007 07:35:17 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 07:37:52 [Permalink]
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Cune, the process is nearing its end; and as the manifesto states the tenets are not exact. Without an overt statement that America is a communistic state, and with the tenets of communism being part of American law and culture, we have a de facto communist state.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2007 : 07:45:13 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, I have yet to make a judgment on communism; and like many forms of government there are good ideas therein.
Halfmooner said "there are few parallels between that tract and actual "Communist" governments."
Have you seen China recently? America and China have been growing closer in function of government over many years.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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USA is a De facto communist state
