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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 09:14:25 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Based on the "profit motive" you can discount any drug claim as the prescription drug industry makes profit, lobbies the government for approval with money (i.e. profit), and doctors are "lobbied" by the drug industry. |
I don't dismiss Whitaker based on a profit motive exactly. But his selling of alternative meds is a motive to for him to slam the industry that he competes with. His statements are misleading and contain outright falsehoods. He is of a school of “medicine” that thinks double blind studies are over rated and takes a completely unscientific approach to his “practice” which, by the way, doesn't really exist because he is busy writing screeds and selling product. He doesn't see patients. He is too busy promoting himself to do that.
Jerome, he is on every quack list including the National Council Against Health Fraud and Quackwatch.
Here is an article you might enjoy from The American Council of Science and Health:
Should We "Thank God" for Julian Whitaker?
from article:
Trust Me—I'm a Doctor
If Julian Whitaker is—as Healing Miracles, his tabloidlike teaser publication, states—"America's Favorite Family Doctor . . . Trusted By Over a Half-Million People," it behooves us to learn about the development of his career, his credentials, and the health claims he disseminates.
Among the various substances Whitaker recommends for 'stopping the clock' is human growth hormone (HGH).
Whitaker was born in 1944. He obtained a bachelor's (A.B.) degree from Dartmouth College in 1966 and an M.D. degree from Emory University Medical School in 1970. He became an orthopedic surgical resident 2 at a hospital affiliated with the University of California at San Francisco, but he did not finish the program. Whitaker states that his meeting with a healthy-looking 34-year-old woman who came to the emergency room where he worked as a resident started him on the path of "natural therapies." The patient was a distributor of dietary supplements marketed by the Shaklee Corporation. She evidently so impressed Whitaker that he began to take vitamin supplements and to "investigate the 'hinterlands'" of his profession. Whitaker says that what he found during this investigation astonished him—for example, "natural supplements that clear out clogged arteries the way Liquid Plumber [sic] cleans out a stuffed-up sink drain" and "cancer therapies" that made potato-sized tumors "disappear completely, without chemo or radiation!"
Whitaker states that he is "board certified in anti-aging medicine" and that he practices preventive medicine—but he has never been conventionally certified in any specialty acknowledged by the official source of such certification, the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS), or by the American Medical Association (AMA). "Anti-aging medicine" is not a specialty thus acknowledged. Whitaker further describes himself as a longtime practitioner of alternative medicine and says that "orthomolecular medicine" is the "label" that "comes closest to describing what I have be-lieved and practiced for the last 25 years." Alternative medicine and orthomolecular medicine are likewise not specialties acknowledged by either the ABMS or the AMA. |
And on and on… I suggest reading all of the article.
Jerome:
Why were there not school shoo |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:51:43 [Permalink]
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Kil, does not the "establishment" have a motive to discredit thier competitors?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 14:11:11 [Permalink]
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Jerome, Jerome. As Kil and Ricky have made abundantly clear, this Dr. Whitaker is a classic example of a practitioner of the ancient and disreputable art of quackery. That means he's at least as unreliable for medical advice as is the lying Dr. Travolta.
All medicines from "Big Pharma" should be and are subject to continuing scientific and regulatory scrutiny, unlike many "alternative" so-called therapies. Mainstream drugs are generally well-tested, safe and effective. Of course, there is a profit motive, and this has in some rare cases meant that a few drugs have been rushed into distribution without adequate safety measures being exercised. Do you propose to eliminate this problem by socialist fiat?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 14:31:36 [Permalink]
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http://breggin.com/deangelo.html
"On February 24, 2000 Connecticut Superior Court Judge J. Arnold acquitted Christopher DeAngelo of first-degree robbery on the grounds that the defendant lacked substantial capacity as a result of mental disease or defect, and was unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct or to control his conduct within the requirements of the law. Mr. Angelo had been taking a tranquilizer, Xanax, and an antidepressant, Prozac."
"Dr. Breggin concluded that if the defendant had not been prescribed Prozac and Xanax, "he would almost certainly never have committed these crimes."
"Several other psychiatrists, including one appointed by the State's Attorney's Office, came to conclusions very similar to Dr. Breggin's. The case is State of Connecticut vs. Christopher DeAngelo (CR97 0108766S), Superior Court, Judicial District of Ansonia/Milford at Milford.The defense attorney was John Williams (203 562 9931)."
Looks like the drugs can make you crazy.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 14:36:11 [Permalink]
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http://www.breggin.com/luvox.html
"On April 29 the Washington Post confirmed that Eric Harris, the leader in the Littleton tragedy, was taking the psychiatric drug Luvox at the time of the murders."
"According to the manufacturer, Solvay, 4% of children and youth taking Luvox developed mania during short-term controlled clinical trials. Mania is a psychosis which can produce bizarre, grandiose, highly elaborated destructive plans, including mass murder. Interestingly, in a recent controlled clinical trial, Prozac produced mania in the same age group at a rate of 6%."
And they just recently placed a warning about only suicide on the warning labels.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 14:40:48 [Permalink]
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Here is a list of children on these types of drugs that were involved in school shootings.
http://tinyurl.com/3ymj5o
Here are the last major school shooters and the link under each name is a reputable news source that connects them all with SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) like Prozac, Ritalin, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil, and others:
1) May 20 1999: T.J. Solomon, a 15-year-old wounds six at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga.. http://add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa052599.htm CNN Reports That T.J. Solomon was on Ritalin.
2) April 16 1999: Shawn Cooper, a 15-year-old sophomore wounds one at Notus Junior-Senior High School in Notus, Idaho. http://www.boiseweekly.com/archive/v7i42/cope/cope_col.html Reports that Cooper was abused and medicated.
3) April 20 1999: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold kill thirteen and wound twenty three at Columbine High School. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/april99/antisocial04299.htm Eric Harris, The apparent leader of the attack had been on Luvox.
4) May 21, 1998: Kip Kinkel, a 15-year-old kills four and wounds twenty three at Thurston High School in Springfield, Ore.. http://www.drugawareness.org/washtimes.html Kinkle Had been taking Prozac.
5) March 24, 1998: Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, opened fire on their classmates and killed five and wounded eleven at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark..
6) Julie Marie Meade from Maryland who was shot to death by the police when they found her waving a gun at them. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
7) Ben Garris, a 16-year-old in Baltimore who stabbed his counselor to death. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
8) Kristina Fetters, a 14-year-old from Des Moines, Iowa, who stabbed her favorite great aunt in a rage that landed her a life sentence. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
9) Pfizer, The Manufacturer of Zoloft is being sued by a Kansas family for the Suicide of their 14 year old son on Zoloft. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/061099.html
10) The estate of Brynn Hartman, Wife of the Saturday Night Live Comedian, Phil Hartman, is also suing Pfizer, since Mrs. Hartman had been on Zoloft when she killed her husband and herself! http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/061099.html
Take these drugs at your own risk.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:20:10 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
Kil, does not the "establishment" have a motive to discredit thier competitors? |
That question is just like you Jerome. Here is a guy who says he can cure cancer with just vitamin supplements, which he happens to sell, and the only alarm that goes off in your head is that others may have a money motive to discredit him.
Okay smart guy, find me a study that supports Whitaker's claim that SSRI's are making teenage boys go crazy and committing mass murder. (Of course, you will have to do that knowing that Cho was not on any psychotropic medications when he went on his little killing spree, but hey, that's incidental. Cho does fit the psychological profile of someone who might do what he and others have done, but lets ignore that for now.)
Jerome:
Here is a list of children on these types of drugs that were involved in school shootings. |
I don't suppose it would occur to you that all of the people taking those drugs were taking them for a reason?
I bet I can find you a pretty long list of killers who were on nothing. In fact, it would surley be a much longer list then you or that organization that you linked to could ever come up with. Hell, even some of the incidents on your list were co-carried out by people who were not on a psychotropic medication. Do you think that being on an SSRI is somehow contagious? Your entire list only proves that those people were having psychiatric problems to begin with. Your list does not demonstrate a link to their crimes and taking certain medications.
You are committing the logical fallacy of a “Hasty Generalization.”
| Hasty Generalization (Dicto Simpliciter, also called “Jumping to Conclusions,” "Converse Accident"): Mistaken use of inductive reasoning when there are too few samples to prove a point. Example: "Susan failed Biology 101. Herman failed Biology 101. Egbert failed Biology 101. I therefore conclude that most students who take Biology 101 will fail it." In understanding and characterizing general situations, a logician cannot normally examine every single example. However, the examples used in inductive reasoning should be typical of the problem or situation at hand. Maybe Susan, Herman, and Egbert are exceptionally poor students. Maybe they were sick and missed too many lectures that term to pass. If a logician wants to make the case that most students will fail Biology 101, she should (a) get a very large sample--at least one larger than three--or (b) if that isn't possible, she will need to go out of his way to prove to the reader that her three samples are somehow representative of the norm. If a logician considers only exceptional or dramatic cases and generalizes a rule that fits these alone, the author commits the fallacy of hasty generalization. |
Source:
Logical Fallacies Handlist
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:29:48 [Permalink]
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Kil said "and the only alarm that goes off in your head is that others may have a money motive to discredit him."
You used money motivation to discredit him; I only pointed out that the opposing view also had a money motivation.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:37:40 [Permalink]
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In reality the studies show serious problems with these drugs, that have been know about.
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9409
"a study by researchers at Hadassah-Hebrew University School of Medicine in Jerusalem, published in the Annals of Pharmacotherapy, concluded the following about Luvox: “Our case series suggests that fluvoxamine may have the ability to induce or unmask manic behavior in depressed patients. Clinicians are alerted to monitor for this ‘switching effect...'”
"The New York Post reported on January 31, 1999, that they had obtained documents through the Freedom of Information Act showing that the New York Psychiatric Institute was testing Prozac on 6-year-olds. The psychiatric researchers' own documents noted that “Some patients have been reported to have an increase in suicidal thoughts and/or violent behavior.” Another side effect–wild manic episodes–was also acknowledged in the researchers' records"
"A study published in The Journal of Forensic Science in September, 1998, found that of 392 youth suicides in Paris between 1989 and 1996, 35% used to take psychoactive drugs."
"A 1995 Nordic conference reported that the new antidepressant drugs, in particular, have a stimulating amphetamine-like effect and consumers of these drugs can become “aggressive” or “suffer hallucinations and/or suicidal thoughts.”
"Valium was later replaced by Xanax as the most widely prescribed minor tranquilizer. According to a 1984 study of Xanax, “Extreme anger and hostile behavior emerged from eight of the first 80 patients we treated with alprazolam (Xanax).”
Looks like many studies over a long period of time have shown these drugs to be vary dangerous.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:47:46 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
You used money motivation to discredit him; I only pointed out that the opposing view also had a money motivation. |
I'm sorry. I am not yet cynical enough to believe that the reason quacks are attacked is because they are a monetary threat to the evidence based medical community, and they certainly aren't a monetary threat to the skeptical community. Conversely, I absolutely believe that the constant attacks on the medical “establishment” and skeptics by the purveyors of alternative medicine is exactly motivated by money.
But, whatever…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 15:53:56 [Permalink]
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Kil, thanks for the link. Very concise information.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 16:13:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
In reality the studies show serious problems with these drugs, that have been know about.
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9409
Looks like many studies over a long period of time have shown these drugs to be vary dangerous.
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Same shit, different post.
Did I say that there are no risks involved in prescribing psychotropic medications? All meds have risks that are weighed against their benefits.
You can find this shit you quoted all over the internet. It will still not help you to understand the benefits unless you look at the studies.
And we are way beyond SSRI's now by bringing up Xanax and Valium.
If you don't to consider how many people, including children, didn't commit suicide or acts of violence, and might have if it weren't for these drugs, we have no where to go with this discussion…
I have an idea. Why not lets take away one of the main tools for treating mental illness because they are not without risk. Does that seem reasonable to you Jerome?
Edited.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 23:54:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
http://www.teenscreentruth.com/ReasonBehindTheMadness.html
"Last month, I warned you about the dangers of these selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and detailed a few of the scores of murders, suicides, and other acts of violence committed by people taking Prozac-like drugs. THESE DRUGS CAN CAUSE AKATHISIA, MENTAL AND PHYSICAL AGITATION THAT SPARKS SELF-DESTRUCTIVE, VIOLENT BEHAVIOR. They can also induce dissociative reactions, making those who take the drugs INSENSITIVE TO THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR BEHAVIOR."
— Dr. Julian Whitaker, M.D.
http://www.drwhitaker.com
Just a start. You could e-mail the doctor. |
Teen suicide and antidepressants
From the article:
The authors detail the FDA concern about the possible association between selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs-a class of antidepressants) and worsening of suicidal thoughts and/or new onset of increased suicidal behavior. In the FDA review of suicidal data, there are limitations; many of the patients seen in the office of pediatricians and psychiatrists were excluded from the 24 studies (patients who were very sick with depression and were significantly suicidal, and patients with other disorders present, such as ADHD). The FDA examined past records of the patients (rather than interviews), and it was difficult to identify /assess and classify the suicidal intent of the patients. |
The jury is still out on whether there is significant correlation between SSRIs and teen suicide rates.
Fighting Back
From the article:
The link between teenage SSRI use and violent episodes is still considered very tenuous, however. Many psychiatrists and researchers are vocal about the overall positive impact of antidepressants in this age group, citing the probable number of teen suicides these antidepressants have prevented and pointing to studies asserting that the drugs are generally well-tolerated in this population.
While this debate is unlikely to be settled soon, one thing is clear, says Hazler. "Puberty alone is a significant biological risk factor. Rapid physical and psychological changes—including hormonal fluctuations that create moodiness—make the pre-teen and teen years a danger zone for volatile, unpredictable behavior." |
Again, the conclusion is questionable.
The problem in solving this issue stems from the same problem as ice cream sales increase in NYC the occurrence of rapes increase in NYC. Ice cream sales do not cause rapes but rather are corollary due to the increase in temperature and windows being left open, increasing a rapists access to victims.
The question is: Is it the SSRI or rather the existing depression/anxiety and other factors for which these medications are prescribed that are causal in teen suicide and violence?
Edited to fix formatting - yeah I fouled it up a second time. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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| Edited by - Trish on 06/23/2007 23:59:00 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 01:38:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Based on the "profit motive" you can discount any drug claim as the prescription drug industry makes profit, lobbies the government for approval with money (i.e. profit), and doctors are "lobbied" by the drug industry. |
Actually, it was Dr. Whitaker's little article that introduced the idea of using the profit motive to discredit big pharma. That's precisely why Dr. Whitaker should not be taken seriously, per your own argument.
And once again we see more evidence in favor of my hypothesis, because you're finding better (not great, just better) links over time to support your claims in this thread. This means that you had nothing but your own say-so at first, but have now invested time in research to try to prove your original contention true.
The list of school shooters only has five people on it. A very small sampling. Before the first name on that list, there were (since Prozac was introduced in 1987, let's only go back that far):- Michael Carneal, and I can't find primary sources saying he was on Ritalin (as he "reportedly" was).
- Luke Woodham, and I can't find primary sources saying he was on Prozac.
- There's no evidence that Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri was on SSRIs.
- There don't appear to be any claims that Thomas Hamilton was on anything.
- Barry Loukaitis had a three-generation family history of depression, but doesn't seem to have been medicated.
- Nobody's claiming that Jaime Rouse was medicated.
- Wayne Lo may have been schizophrenic, but doesn't appear to have been medicated at all.
- There aren't any hints that Valery Fabrikant was on antipsychotics.
- And I can't find anything on Gang Lu being medicated.
Of course, it's been several years since the list you quoted was written. Who's done some shooting since Thomas Solomon Jr. shot up his school?- Charles Andrew Williams may have been abusing alcohol and other drugs, but I can't find anything on antidrepressants.
- Peter Odighizuwa is only claimed, by some anonymous blog commenter, to have been treated for depression and stress.
- Robert Steinhäuser doesn't seem to have been on anything.
- Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang may have just been paranoid and delusional.
- John Jason McLaughlin may have been mentally ill, but there's no evidence he was medicated.
- Jeffrey Weise was "apparently taking medication for depression" according to Wikipedia, but there are no references to specific drugs there, but this page has a copy of an NYT article saying it was Prozac.
- Kenneth Bartley Jr. had a history of pot and oxycontin use, but was trying to stay clean, according to friends.
- Kimveer Gill recreationally used alcohol and extasy.
- Duane R. Morrison may have been a pot-smoker.
- Charles Carl Roberts doesn't seem to have been medicated.
- Eric Hainstock may have been under the effects of nicotine.
- Shane Halligan was an Eagle Scout and volunteer firefighter with no history of mental illness or treatmet.
- Douglas Chanthabouly was on a "powerful anti-psychotic drug."
- Seung-Hui Cho, as has already been determined, wasn't on anything.
- And finally, it's impossible to say anything about the C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooters because their identities are being protected.
So, including the five in the list you offered, Jerome, we have 29 school shootings, only seven of which are more-or-less definitely linked to antidepressants, and two more that "reportedly" were. Would you really say, Jerome, that nine cases out of 29 (31 percent) is "almost always?" Or will you retract your original claim:You should do some research and see psychotropic drugs almost always are present in school shootings. Once again, it seems like your "common knowledge" has failed you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Sorry Travolta, Cho not on drugs...
