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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2007 : 01:45:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Here is a list of children on these types of drugs that were involved in school shootings.
http://tinyurl.com/3ymj5o
Here are the last major school shooters and the link under each name is a reputable news source that connects them all with SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) like Prozac, Ritalin, Zoloft, Luvox, Paxil, and others:
1) May 20 1999: T.J. Solomon, a 15-year-old wounds six at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga.. http://add.about.com/health/add/library/weekly/aa052599.htm CNN Reports That T.J. Solomon was on Ritalin.
2) April 16 1999: Shawn Cooper, a 15-year-old sophomore wounds one at Notus Junior-Senior High School in Notus, Idaho. http://www.boiseweekly.com/archive/v7i42/cope/cope_col.html Reports that Cooper was abused and medicated.
3) April 20 1999: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold kill thirteen and wound twenty three at Columbine High School. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/april99/antisocial04299.htm Eric Harris, The apparent leader of the attack had been on Luvox.
4) May 21, 1998: Kip Kinkel, a 15-year-old kills four and wounds twenty three at Thurston High School in Springfield, Ore.. http://www.drugawareness.org/washtimes.html Kinkle Had been taking Prozac.
5) March 24, 1998: Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, opened fire on their classmates and killed five and wounded eleven at Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark..
6) Julie Marie Meade from Maryland who was shot to death by the police when they found her waving a gun at them. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
7) Ben Garris, a 16-year-old in Baltimore who stabbed his counselor to death. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
8) Kristina Fetters, a 14-year-old from Des Moines, Iowa, who stabbed her favorite great aunt in a rage that landed her a life sentence. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/070998.html
9) Pfizer, The Manufacturer of Zoloft is being sued by a Kansas family for the Suicide of their 14 year old son on Zoloft. http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/061099.html
10) The estate of Brynn Hartman, Wife of the Saturday Night Live Comedian, Phil Hartman, is also suing Pfizer, since Mrs. Hartman had been on Zoloft when she killed her husband and herself! http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/061099.html
Take these drugs at your own risk. |
By the way, in my last post I said the above list only had five names on it. In copying the list, Jerome left out the lines between #5 and #6:Arkansas Online http://www.ardemgaz.com/prev/jonesboro/brygolden24.html Andrew Golden's Medical Records released to Courts but not open to the public!
From Jon Rappaport of the Truthseeker foundation: http://www.nfgcc.org/schoolviolence.htm A Doctor from Georgetown University commented on Network television that one of the boys had previously been treated for violent behavior. (Treated with what?)
AND According to Arianna Huffington the following events are linked to Anti-Depressants as well: It's easy to see that the last five weren't school shootings, but Jerome's failure to properly elide or terminate the quote might make a casual reader who skims think there are ten school shootings listed. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 08:16:44 [Permalink]
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Right Dave. I mostly ignored the lists because there are anti psycotropic medicine pages all over the internet. Some of them, like Dr. Whitiker's are woo woo sites. Many of them suffer from the use of the same "hasty generalization" fallacy that plagues Jerome. And as you pointed out, like the lists that Jerome posted, there is some serious cherry picking going on to a degree that includes the use of cases that must be stretched way beyond reason to support their claim.
They are just like the fools who think that childhood inoculations leads to autism or that fluoridation in the water leads to lowering IQ's and cancer and just about everything else that is bad. And then there is the anti aspartame crowd.
It goes on and on. There is so much misinformation out there it is no wonder that even seemingly reasonable people sometimes get confused about what is real and what is not. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 11:40:11 [Permalink]
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Alrighty, I found this from our buddies at CCHR, which includes some names not yet included in the list, which prompted me to go looking for more. Let's add them all, organize the list chronologically, and see what we see:
- 05/1988: Laurie Dann, Anafranil and Lithium.
- 09/1988: James Wilson, "on Xanax, Valium and five other drugs."
- 01/1989: Patrick Purdy, "two strong psychiatric drugs of categories known to cause violence."
- 12/1989: Marc Lépine, no evidence he was on antidepressants (NE).
- 11/1991: Gang Lu, NE.
- 08/1992: Valery Fabrikant, NE.
- 12/1992: Wayne Lo, NE.
- ??/1993: Steve Lieth, Prozac.
- 11/1995: Jaime Rouse, NE.
- 02/1996: Barry Loukaitis, NE.
- 03/1996: Thomas Hamilton, NE.
- 03/1997: Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri, NE.
- 10/1997: Luke Woodham, Prozac.
- 12/1997: Michael Carneal, Ritalin.
- 03/1998: Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden, Ritalin.
- 05/1998: Kip Kinkel, Prozac and Ritalin.
- 04/1999: Shawn Cooper, Ritalin.
- 04/1999: Eric Harris, Luvox.
- 04/1999: W.R. Myers High School shooter, Dexadrine.
- 05/1999: T.J. Solomon, Ritalin, or "a mix of antidepressants."
- ??/2000: Seth Trickey, "on a variety of prescriptions."
- 03/2000: Elizabeth Bush, Prozac.
- 03/2001: Charles Andrew Williams, NE.
- 03/2001: Jason Hoffman, Celexa and Effexor.
- 01/2002: Peter Odighizuwa, NE.
- 03/2002: Robert Steinhäuser, NE.
- 10/2002: Huan Yun "Allen" Xiang, NE.
- 09/2003: John Jason McLaughlin, NE.
- 03/2005: Jeffrey Weise, Prozac
- 11/2005: Kenneth Bartley Jr., NE.
- 09/2006: Kimveer Gill, NE.
- 09/2006: Duane R. Morrison, NE.
- 10/2006: Charles Carl Roberts, NE.
- 10/2006: Eric Hainstock, NE.
- 12/2006: Shane Halligan, NE.
- 01/2007: Douglas Chanthabouly, on a "powerful anti-psychotic drug."
- 04/2007: Seung-Hui Cho, NE.
- 05/2007: C.W. Jefferys Collegiate Institute shooters, NE
So, with that added data, the ratio is now 17 out of 38, or 45%. "Not even half" is apparently "almost always."
By the way, I'd like to note that the CCHR press release claims "that 8 of the last 13 school shooters were under the influence of psychiatric drugs," and they cite numbers 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 24 and 29 from the above list. However, at the time of that press release, numbers 19 through 31 were the "last 13 school shooters," and only six of them (46%) were linked to psychiatric drugs. The authors also tried to sneak in a hostage situation with no shooting as a shooting, as a ninth example. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 11:46:40 [Permalink]
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| Actually, I think Kip Kinkel went on a shooting rampage because his name was Kip Kinkel. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 11:56:34 [Permalink]
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| Jerome, you should feel free to add documented shootings to the list. If we set the bar ridiculously low on "almost always," and say that it means 80% of the time, then you only need to come up with sixty-seven more school shootings linked to these sorts of meds in order to vindicate yourself. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 16:52:28 [Permalink]
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Dave, I picked just one of your examples of non drug related shooters. Wiki is incomplete.
http://tinyurl.com/2j64ya
Eric Hainstock was on Ritalin.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 17:11:17 [Permalink]
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C.W. Jeffrey school shooters not named.
It is not valid to use non available information.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 17:20:50 [Permalink]
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"If Cho Seung-Hui's psychiatric drug use is confirmed, it would bring the total to 61 killed and 77 wounded by psychiatric drug-induced school shootings."
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9027/19846
So, 60 of 77 confirmed. Of the other 17 some are not confirmed yes or no for drugs.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 17:23:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"If Cho Seung-Hui's psychiatric drug use is confirmed, it would bring the total to 61 killed and 77 wounded by psychiatric drug-induced school shootings."
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9027/19846
So, 60 of 77 confirmed. Of the other 17 some are not confirmed yes or no for drugs.
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So you are bringing in the Scientologists now? Info on cchr.
"Fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones." |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 17:28:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, I picked just one of your examples of non drug related shooters. Wiki is incomplete.
http://tinyurl.com/2j64ya
Eric Hainstock was on Ritalin. |
Bravo! You did some research.
Sadly for your premise, though, Hainstock was off Ritalin for five years before he shot up his school.
You also complained:C.W. Jeffrey school shooters not named.
It is not valid to use non available information. |
The W.R. Myers High School shooter isn't named, either, so should we subtract that Dexadrine user from the totals, as well?
Besides, we're looking at shootings that are definitely linked to psychiatric drug use, and those that aren't. If there's no evidence of medication use in a case where the shooters aren't named, then it's a school shooting with no known link to antidepressants.
Of course, the truly sad fact is that even if I granted your complaints as valid, it would move the totals to 17 out of 36, which is still less than 50%. You said "almost always," and it's clear you're unable to give up that position. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2007 : 18:26:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"If Cho Seung-Hui's psychiatric drug use is confirmed, it would bring the total to 61 killed and 77 wounded by psychiatric drug-induced school shootings."
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9027/19846
So, 60 of 77 confirmed. Of the other 17 some are not confirmed yes or no for drugs.
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Jerome, you must have noticed that the article you quoted from was published the day after the shooting. Here is the opening sentence which you just couldn't have missed!
| In the wake of yesterday's shooting rampage at Virginia Tech by gunman Cho Seung-Hui, state legislators, civic and human rights activists are asking why Congress has failed to investigate the link between psychiatric drugs and school violence, given the high rate of psychiatric drug use by the shooters. |
Did you just completely loose your mind using this? Even given the bias of this site, there wouldn't have been autopsy results yet so they are blowing it out of their collective ass's.
And yes, it is a scientology site as pleco said.
The Citizens Commission on Human Rights
CCHR's views on psychiatry are a straightforward reflection of the position put forward by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, whose writings express a very strong anti-psychiatry viewpoint. The practice of psychiatry is considered by Scientologists to be a form of extortion based upon both secular antipsychiatrists and Scientology doctrine, stating there is no biological evidence to support psychiatric theories of mental disorders. However, unlike secular antipsychiatrists, according to Hubbard all psychiatrists are criminals: "There is not one institutional psychiatrist alive who, by ordinary criminal law, could not be arraigned and convicted of extortion, mayhem and murder. Our files are full of evidence on them." |
No bias there...
Can you bring us any weaker shit Jerome? Is it possible?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 18:34:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
"If Cho Seung-Hui's psychiatric drug use is confirmed, it would bring the total to 61 killed and 77 wounded by psychiatric drug-induced school shootings."
http://www.cchr.org/index.cfm/9027/19846
So, 60 of 77 confirmed. Of the other 17 some are not confirmed yes or no for drugs. |
60 of 77? No, you meant 138 (61 killed plus 77 wounded) out of however many total killed and wounded in all school shootings. You can't even get the math in your goalpost movements correct. And yes, it would be goalpost moving, because you did not say,You should do some research and see psychotropic drugs almost always are linked to a greater number of victims in school shootings, you said,You should do some research and see psychotropic drugs almost always are present in school shootings. Which is flat-out wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 18:44:40 [Permalink]
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Kil, the information was presented to show the amount of shooters on drugs. If you notice I put the VT shooting in the non drug side of the equation, meaning that I was not counting it as a drug shooting.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 19:03:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Kil, the information was presented to show the amount of shooters on drugs. If you notice I put the VT shooting in the non drug side of the equation, meaning that I was not counting it as a drug shooting.
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Okay, I'm confused then. If Cho wasn't on drugs, don't you have to subtract 32 deaths from your count and I don't know how many injured?
I'm not kidding. I'm confused... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Sorry Travolta, Cho not on drugs...
