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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 08:12:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is silly to have to prove common knowledge. |
No, what's silly is you making claims without data or references, and then balking when you're asked to back them up, when you demand exactly that from other people.
I suspect you've got all sorts of "common knowledge" about gay parenting, Piltdown Man, global climate change, the 9/11 attacks, literacy and many other subjects, but when asked to support your ideas you complain at first because you don't feel like Googling up actual data. And when you do, you tend to come up with references that don't quite support the claims you've made. It's a pattern you've repeated here, several times. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 08:38:59 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner said "And since the fundy-bigot notion that gay parenting is worse than heterosexual parenting is the extraordinary claim (with only prejudice to bolster it), the burden of proof is upon those who oppose gay parents to prove their case."
Is this in reference to my thoughts?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 08:41:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is silly to have to prove common knowledge. |
No, what's silly is you making claims without data or references, and then balking when you're asked to back them up, when you demand exactly that from other people.
I suspect you've got all sorts of "common knowledge" about gay parenting, Piltdown Man, global climate change, the 9/11 attacks, literacy and many other subjects, but when asked to support your ideas you complain at first because you don't feel like Googling up actual data. And when you do, you tend to come up with references that don't quite support the claims you've made. It's a pattern you've repeated here, several times.
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This from the man that rarely presents data spends most of his words discounting others data.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 08:54:56 [Permalink]
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So far in this thread I sense a leaning toward two fallacies, so for the sake of awareness, they are:
1. The "prove me wrong" fallacy, in which the burden of proof is shifted away from the poster and toward those reacting to his claim, and,
2. The "Opposite assumed to be true" misnomer. People sometimes unconsciously assume that "if not A then B". However, if there are not enough studies to prove that homosexuals are just as good as parents as heterosexuals, that does not mean that homosexuals are not as good as parents as heterosexuals.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 10:09:26 [Permalink]
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Good points Chippewa.
Can we at least agree that many studies have shown that many heterosexual parents are unfit so we should leave all of our children with the homosexual couples until they're determined to be unfit as well?
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Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 11:24:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner said "And since the fundy-bigot notion that gay parenting is worse than heterosexual parenting is the extraordinary claim (with only prejudice to bolster it), the burden of proof is upon those who oppose gay parents to prove their case."
Is this in reference to my thoughts?
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No, and I'm sorry if that point was not clear. By "fundy-bigot," I was referring to those who actively oppose gay parenting, the lot who make discussions like this necessary. I don't think that you are that far out on this subject, as you already conceded early on that it's better to have gay parents than none.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 11:48:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It is silly to have to prove common knowledge. |
No, what's silly is you making claims without data or references, and then balking when you're asked to back them up, when you demand exactly that from other people.
I suspect you've got all sorts of "common knowledge" about gay parenting, Piltdown Man, global climate change, the 9/11 attacks, literacy and many other subjects, but when asked to support your ideas you complain at first because you don't feel like Googling up actual data. And when you do, you tend to come up with references that don't quite support the claims you've made. It's a pattern you've repeated here, several times.
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This from the man that rarely presents data spends most of his words discounting others data.
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Rather than insult one of our kind hosts, Jerome, if you'd instead look back at some of Dave's accumulated posts here, you'd see that he is actually quite good at giving references and evidence, when it is he who is making a claim.
But evidence is not required in refuting the kind of sweeping generalizations of the "common knowledge" sort that you and others have often made in these fora. In cases like these, he, and others of us, need only demand references be cited, and be valid.
You're having a hard time understanding this method, aren't you, Jerome? It's a skeptic's standard critical reasoning approach, and it's inspired by and based upon the methods of science.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:00:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
Does anyone have any idea what a social issue is doing in the Religion forum? I am moving it because I don't think this is, or should be, a religion issue.
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I think that move was a good idea, as the religious connection, though the foundation of the position of the anti-gay-parent lobby, is largely irrelevant to the facts being discussed.
[Compulsively edited for spelling: "ant-" to "anti-".]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 06/23/2007 21:49:08 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:02:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
So far in this thread I sense a leaning toward two fallacies, so for the sake of awareness, they are:
1. The "prove me wrong" fallacy, in which the burden of proof is shifted away from the poster and toward those reacting to his claim, and,
2. The "Opposite assumed to be true" misnomer. People sometimes unconsciously assume that "if not A then B". However, if there are not enough studies to prove that homosexuals are just as good as parents as heterosexuals, that does not mean that homosexuals are not as good as parents as heterosexuals.
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2 for 2, Chip.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:03:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
Good points Chippewa.
Can we at least agree that many studies have shown that many heterosexual parents are unfit so we should leave all of our children with the homosexual couples until they're determined to be unfit as well?
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I certainly agree.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2007 : 12:45:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
So far in this thread I sense a leaning toward two fallacies, so for the sake of awareness, they are:
1. The "prove me wrong" fallacy, in which the burden of proof is shifted away from the poster and toward those reacting to his claim, and,
2. The "Opposite assumed to be true" misnomer. People sometimes unconsciously assume that "if not A then B". However, if there are not enough studies to prove that homosexuals are just as good as parents as heterosexuals, that does not mean that homosexuals are not as good as parents as heterosexuals.
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I proved my claim despite it being common knowledge.
I have seen no one state that homosexuals are not good parents.
In fact, I think you suffer from a common disease here. Making up what others are thinking and basing arguments against the unknown.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 13:01:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by @tomic
| In fact, I think you suffer from a common disease here. Making up what others are thinking and basing arguments against the unknown. |
It's everyone but you Jerome, everyone but you.
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Really, who made a statement that homosexuals were not good parents?
That untrue claim was made with no evidence, as such it should be retracted.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2007 : 13:35:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
[quote]Really, who made a statement that homosexuals were not good parents? That untrue claim was made with no evidence, as such it should be retracted. |
No such claim was made by me. Again: People sometimes unconsciously assume that "if not A then B". i.e. Lack of studies to prove that homosexuals as parents are as good as heterosexuals, does not mean that homosexual parents are not as good as heterosexuals.
I can't help it if you are not capable of critical thinking.  |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Homosexual Adoption
