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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2007 : 12:18:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Ricky
We're in the 21st century. Fear mongering should be a thing of the past. Governments should not scare their people into behaving. |
Yet fear mongering, government and media supported, is prevalent in current American society. So how much of a difference is this?
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Please Mab! We like to think of ourselves as civilized, regardless of our cowboy like attitude toward human rights. And we don't need no stinking foreigners attempts to burst the bubble we live in.
We're civilized. And if you don't think so, perhaps what you need is a good ass whooping by the most powerful country in the world!
I am just sick and tired of all the other namby-pamby western nations criticizing us. You're all nothing but a bunch of pinko socialists anyway…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 12:45:30 [Permalink]
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| Once again, I know nothing, but my information tells me that the "git tuff on crime" mentality doesn't work very well, and the harshness usually ends up on the backs of the poor and minorities. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/02/2007 12:47:30 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:22:41 [Permalink]
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Half said:
And here's a thought: How many criminals will simply walk free, when jurors who oppose torture (and I dearly hope there are millions of us!) stand on principle and refuse to convict? Or are you going to throw out the jury system, too, Dude?
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Slippery slope fallacy Half. Besides, you must realize that your position is a minority one.
What utter. dangerous nonsense. (Well, blood is "fluid," I suppose.) Flogging is not torture? Bullshit!
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Flogging is pretty far from "severe pain or suffering". Its just spanking. You'd need to provide evidence that flogging causes some permanent mental injury to those who get flogged to make such a case. Such data should be readily available, as there are several countries that use it as criminal punishment.
Ricky said:
| At this point, I'm really surprised, afraid, and horrified. What you talk about is society controlling those who commit crimes. We're in the 21st century. Fear mongering should be a thing of the past. Governments should not scare their people into behaving. I am really appalled that you think this should be the case. |
Can you cram a few more fallacies of logic into those sentences?
Flogging is about punishment for crime, not "control", not "fear mongering". Government IS force, it is coercion, it exists to force people to do things they don't want to do. Fear of consequences is probably the least harmfull force that governments can apply.
The idea that people are just going to magically fall in line and behave like they are supposed to, just because its the 21st century, is the truly frightening and horrifying thing here!
Around 14,000 people in the us die every year because of DUI drivers. Obviously the current system for dealing with them is broken beyond salvage. Nothing we currently do prevents 14,000 people from losing their lives to the illegal behavior of some people. We should increase the severity of the punishment for first time DUI where no harm was done to another, by publicly flogging them. I'm also in favor of making DUI with fatalities a 1st degree felony with a mandatory life prison sentence, no parole, but that is a bit off topic.
Flogging isn't torture, it isn't "fear mongering", and it should be used instead of sending non-violent criminals to prison.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:25:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
...there are several countries that use [flogging] as criminal punishment. |
Any Western democracies?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 13:29:20 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
In what way would that be relevant to the ability to find data on the alleged psychological harm that flogging allegedly causes?
Or were you just trying to be clever and change the subject?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 14:35:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
H.H. said:
In what way would that be relevant to the ability to find data on the alleged psychological harm that flogging allegedly causes? |
You said that Half was a "minority" when considering flogging to be a form of torture. Western democracies have all but outlawed torture as a means of criminal punishment. Citing any Western nations which permit the flogging of criminals would bolster your claim that most civilized people do not equate flogging with torture.
And flogging is not merely "spanking." It's whipping.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/02/2007 14:37:59 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 15:20:15 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
| You said that Half was a "minority" when considering flogging to be a form of torture. |
Well, western democracies are a minority in the world. But that isn't really relevant, so I withdraw that particular statement. I fully recognize that in the realm of moral concepts the majority can be (and often is) wrong.
Citing any Western nations which permit the flogging of criminals would bolster your claim that most civilized people do not equate flogging with torture.
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I don't recall having made that claim, it seems to be entirely of your invention. I claimed that the majority don't see flogging as torture. The measure (obviously a subjective statement as well) of how "civilized" a person is was never mentioned by me. How do you determine that, anyway?
| And flogging is not merely "spanking." It's whipping. |
Sure it is. It is definitely harsh. But I do not think it rises to the level of torture, it isn't "severe pain or suffering". If done properly you hurt for a couple of days, and then you are fine. I'm not talking about lashing the skin off peoples backsides, just raising some welts, publicly.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 15:38:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
'Mooner, it looks like you're going to be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
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Happens to revolutionaries all the time. They're more likely to be shot by their comrades for heresy/revisionism than by the putative enemy.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 15:41:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Ricky
We're in the 21st century. Fear mongering should be a thing of the past. Governments should not scare their people into behaving. |
Yet fear mongering, government and media supported, is prevalent in current American society. So how much of a difference is this?
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Hey, man, we're trying to fix things over here! We're even making some progress.
BTW, how's that Swedish democratic socialism thing coming along?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 07/02/2007 16:01:27 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 19:41:33 [Permalink]
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| Can you cram a few more fallacies of logic into those sentences? |
Followed by not a single logic fallacy pointed out, just the fact that you disagree with me.
| Flogging is about punishment for crime, not "control", not "fear mongering". Government IS force, it is coercion, it exists to force people to do things they don't want to do. Fear of consequences is probably the least harmfull force that governments can apply. |
Bullshit. By parading someone in front of the public then beating them with a whip, you are trying to affect the actions of others by the spreading of fear. That is fear mongering plain and simple.
| The idea that people are just going to magically fall in line and behave like they are supposed to, just because its the 21st century, is the truly frightening and horrifying thing here! |
I agree, and not only that, but I suggested an alternate plan of action to educate people rather than beat them into submission.
| Around 14,000 people in the us die every year because of DUI drivers. Obviously the current system for dealing with them is broken beyond salvage. Nothing we currently do prevents 14,000 people from losing their lives to the illegal behavior of some people. |
Are you suggesting there is a system which stops the vast majority of crime? Because beating people has been tried, and history has shown that it just doesn't stop crime.
| We should increase the severity of the punishment for first time DUI where no harm was done to another, by publicly flogging them. |
I might possibly agree, if it could be shown that harsher punishments have an actual effect in stopping crime. To this day, I have never seen evidence of such. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/02/2007 19:43:09 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:05:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Holy mother of God! Floggings, pillories, votes by landowners only? And these ideas are coming from people who consider themselves skeptics? Few of the fundy theonazis even openly talk like this, aside from the mention of a judicial stoning now and again. Key Reist.
Let's put this rock back on the ground quickly, lest some of the bugs that were under it run up our legs.
Oh! You guys had me going there. You were all kidding, right?
Right?
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I was joking about pillories and floggings. I wasn't about executions. They have no deterrent effect if they are not public. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:09:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Valiant Dancer said:
| It's fair market value is $300,000. I owe $237,000 to a lien holder who can call the note at any time and evict me. I suppose that would mean lien holders could vote by proxy since they have claim to the most land |
The only reason the value is so high is the ability to borrow over 30 years. The only reason you have incurred this 30 year debt is the ability to borrow over 30 years.
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And levels of indebetedness where land and holdings have been used as collateral to secure loans is not a new idea.
So, it's the ability of money lenders to make a contract that is to blame for indebtedness.
Interesting. Well, when should we line them all up and shoot them with the personal injury lawyers. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:16:11 [Permalink]
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Why does government need to create citizens that submit?
Free people need not submit.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 01:56:41 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
Followed by not a single logic fallacy pointed out, just the fact that you disagree with me.
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If you refuse to examine your own thoughts and words for logical fallacy, you certainly won't accept me pointing them out to you. Obviously you are having an emotional response to this thread and are uninterested in actual debate, so there is no reason to expect you to be capable of honest self evaluation I guess.
Bullshit. By parading someone in front of the public then beating them with a whip, you are trying to affect the actions of others by the spreading of fear. That is fear mongering plain and simple.
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See? Pure emotional response.
What about the idea of using public humiliation and pain to convince the criminal their actions should not be repeated? Why can't that be what is happening?
Because, seriously, fear of consequences is the glue that binds most people to the rule of law. I can only support this assertion with evidence by citation of Kohlberg's stages of moral development, where the premise is that one stage precedes the next, and that most adults are level 2 (stage 3 or 4).
Honestly answer this question: Do you think most people would obey the rule of law as routinely as they do now if there were no adverse consequences for not doing so?
Are you suggesting there is a system which stops the vast majority of crime? Because beating people has been tried, and history has shown that it just doesn't stop crime.
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Care to support that with some evidence?
I can't find petty crime rates for most countries, but: In 2006 the only western democracies with lower murder rates than Saudi Arabia were Norway, Iceland, and Japan. Pakistan has the lowest reported murder rate of any country. Crime rates for other kinds of crime tend to follow the same patterns as murder rates.
I did find a site that listed theft rates for the US, Sweden, England, and Japan.... Sweden is apparently not a safe place to keep your stuff, with theft rates double the US and 6times that of Japan.
This is an interesting little site with some comparative crime statistics. Worth a couple minutes of your time, at least. Look how Singapore stacks up to some US cities.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Requirement for Citizenship?
