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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 03:48:30 [Permalink]
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For now, I'm going to ignore that you tried to sweep my entire argument under the rug by calling it emotional. I'm going to ignore the fact that you said I had logic fallacies yet when called on it you refuse to present such. I'm going to ignore that you call me not critical and unable to evaluate myself.
For the sake of discussion.
What about the idea of using public humiliation and pain to convince the criminal their actions should not be repeated? Why can't that be what is happening?
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Because this is trying to control society by instilling fear in them. It is the equivalent of Hell on earth. You trying to scare people by beating them is no difference the the Christian church scaring little boys not to pull on their weenies because if they do, they'll go to Hell or become blind.
Ask yourself Dude, why is it that you don't commit crime? Is it cause you're afraid of getting caught? I certainly hope not.
Honestly answer this question: Do you think most people would obey the rule of law as routinely as they do now if there were no adverse consequences for not doing so?
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I have little interest in speculating how our society would react to such drastic changes. But who is suggesting that we remove all adverse consequences? Certainly not I. This is a red herring at best, and a straw man at worst.
| Are you suggesting there is a system which stops the vast majority of crime? Because beating people has been tried, and history has shown that it just doesn't stop crime. |
Care to support that with some evidence?
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That people in history who have violated the law have been treated brutally and that crime still existed? No, I don't, it should be glaringly obvious. And if you don't accept such, I have no interest in wasting my time getting you to.
I can't find petty crime rates for most countries, but: In 2006 the only western democracies with lower murder rates than Saudi Arabia were Norway, Iceland, and Japan. Pakistan has the lowest reported murder rate of any country. Crime rates for other kinds of crime tend to follow the same patterns as murder rates.
I did find a site that listed theft rates for the US, Sweden, England, and Japan.... Sweden is apparently not a safe place to keep your stuff, with theft rates double the US and 6times that of Japan. |
Societies are complex things, as are the reasons behind why someone commits crime. You can't honestly be attributing the difference in crime rates just to how severe the punishments punishments are. Take Saudi Arabia for example, where college is paid for entirely by the government. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/03/2007 03:49:39 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 05:30:13 [Permalink]
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"I say we hang em! Then we kill em'!"
Seriously though, Ive read a whole lot of bullshit on this thread and it needs to be addressed.
1. Is a short whipping actually worse than serving multiple years in prison? I for one would take the whipping willingly as opposed to serving significant time in a US prison, which run the gamut from decent to hellish.
2. Why is signifificant time in prison and by extension solitary confinement, not torture? Go interview some of the shit eating prisoners in The Shoe and get back to me.
3. Confinement for every crime will eventually break any system, as it has in the U.S., Paris Hilton was not released early because she was famous, in that area all non-voilents serve only 5% of their sentence due to over-crowding.
4. Just because flogging would be allowed does not mean it needs to be televised.
Take your high and mighty 'confinement is humanitarian' and 'the Westernised majority is always right' attitudes and shove it. (Edit: My high and mighty position is flawless: bask in its glory.)
On the topic of Citizenship (voting rights), I'm not sure what would work. Clearly the US system is flawed beyond belief as most are. I know that anyone who thinks the US/Mexico border is the most heavily fortified border in the world, should not get a vote. Maybe we need to have them name the 50 state Capitals before voting or something to show that they are capable of making nural connections. General mental merit as opposed to an economic merit. I know this would eliminate the vote of the woefully uneducated, but really is that so bad?
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/03/2007 06:25:18 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 06:29:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marty
I was recently watching the movie "Starship Troopers" which was based on Robert Heinlein's book of the same name. In this book it was suggested that there should be a requirement to gain citizenship, which came with the right to vote among other things.
In America we have a very large number of natural born Americans who have no idea about how the government works nor any idea of civic duty or responsibility...and yet, they get an equal vote as the rest of "us" who do. Is this fair? If so, why? If not, what type of qualifications should all people have to illustrate before they can become citizens and vote? |
The only requirement should be is that they are a US citizen. It should not matter what someone does with their right to vote. If someone wants to vote for a candidate becasue of their hair color, so be it. I would not support any legislation that curbed the right to vote to any citizen. I also do not support the fact that criminals cannot vote in most states. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 06:52:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
I was joking about pillories and floggings. I wasn't about executions. They have no deterrent effect if they are not public.
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Maybe, when I was in the Navy we stopped in Jedda Saudi Arabia for 5 days. They have public executions there a couple times a month by beheading. I got the opportunity to go and see one. The people there made it clear to us what this man did and wanted us to know how they serve justice there. He sexually molested four boys. After questioning the people there a little more they said that crime is low in that city but most of the executions are for murders and sexual abuse of children or raping adults. There are some crimes that there is no deterant for even public executions.
Another observation was that the crowd seemed bloodthirsty. Only men showed up and many with their sons on their necks. Most were cheering as the man was beheaded. I want no part of that here in this country. I wish that I had decided not to go.
No doubt that violent criminals need to be punished but we as the US need act to a higher standard. All the talk of flogging, public executions and the like is appalling and not fit for the US. To say flogging or any form of executions are not cruel punishment is insane. I think actual life in prison is cruel enough for these criminals. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 07:07:05 [Permalink]
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BigPapaSmurf:
General mental merit as opposed to an economic merit. I know this would eliminate the vote of the woefully uneducated, but really is that so bad? |
I think the chance for abuse of any testing procedure to determine eligibility to vote is not worth the risk. We saw this with literacy tests. Perhaps those are a drastic example, but the lesson should be clear.
As for the woefully undereducated, that does not necessarily equate to a lack of common sense and the ability to choose a representative who would best serve your area and your interests…
I wouldn't go there.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 07:14:20 [Permalink]
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| To say flogging or any form of executions are not cruel punishment is insane. I think actual life in prison is cruel enough for these criminals. |
Who are you to say which punishment is more cruel? For me life in prison is far more cruel than a public or private flogging.
Edit: you are the one who equated flogging and execution, they are worlds apart IMO. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/03/2007 07:27:02 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 07:25:45 [Permalink]
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| I think the chance for abuse of any testing procedure to determine eligibility to vote is not worth the risk. We saw this with literacy tests. Perhaps those are a drastic example, but the lesson should be clear. |
I am well aware of the various efforts to subdue the black-undereducated vote in the south of the U.S. -Does this mean that no merit based system should ever be tried because some blacks may have never learned to read or that group X was oppressed so many years ago?? I dont give a shit what color you are, if you are a moron, I dont want you voting for my leaders. I dont care if prisoners vote, I dont care if religious assholes vote, but I expect you to be able to tie your own shoes before being givin a registration card.
This altruism crap doesnt work and anyone who thinks it does is fooling themselves. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
| Edited by - BigPapaSmurf on 07/03/2007 07:26:03 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 07:41:25 [Permalink]
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No doubt that violent criminals need to be punished
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I keep asking people what that means. Is this different than what society needs, and where is the evidence that criminals "need" punishment?
As I've said, society seems to "need" to spend a lot of money locking up poor people and people of color instead of spending money on things that prevent crime, like education, health care, and housing.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/03/2007 07:42:31 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 08:01:52 [Permalink]
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| I vote: 'The Running Man' or 'Climbing for Dollars' as punishment. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 08:18:34 [Permalink]
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BigPapaSmurf:
This altruism crap doesnt work and anyone who thinks it does is fooling themselves. |
Only I am not being altruistic in my view. I am being practical, I think. Are there really so many people who would fail an eligibility test that it would change the vote? And is that level worth the risk of abuse that the test may foster? And will some be disqualified to vote even though their “woeful lack of education” does not demonstrate a lack of ability to reason? What kind of test would determine exactly how moronic a person is with regard to voting eligibility?
Unless those questions could be satisfactorily answered, no amount of frustration on my part over what I think are stupid voters would cause me to disqualify even those people that I personally consider idiots.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 08:35:39 [Permalink]
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If there is no ability to have a secure vote with electronic voting, why does it matter who votes?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 09:36:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
No doubt that violent criminals need to be punished
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I keep asking people what that means. Is this different than what society needs, and where is the evidence that criminals "need" punishment?
As I've said, society seems to "need" to spend a lot of money locking up poor people and people of color instead of spending money on things that prevent crime, like education, health care, and housing. |
What do you suggest we do with the criminals until the education and health care reforms kick in?
Also poor people and people of color are not locked up, criminals are locked up. Who has gone to jail for being poor or black? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 09:39:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
If there is no ability to have a secure vote with electronic voting, why does it matter who votes? |
Why is electronic voting more secure than paper ballets? Isn't it easier to track paper votes than electronic votes? I don't know. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 10:10:35 [Permalink]
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| Also poor people and people of color are not locked up, criminals are locked up. Who has gone to jail for being poor or black? |
Your kidding right? Just beacuse the paperwork doesnt say 'Guilty of being Black' doesnt mean this doesnt happen frequently.
Heres some telling data for you.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=539#Fig.%207
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 10:25:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Hey, man, we're trying to fix things over here! We're even making some progress.
BTW, how's that Swedish democratic socialism thing coming along?
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Too many citizens are now waking up and realising they made a huge mistake voting for the Right-Wing political parties, which are currently busy dismantling as much of the welfare system they possibly can without inciting revolution. 
And I hate every second of it.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Requirement for Citizenship?
