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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:18:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My statement was that the amount was about 30% of a yearly earning.(unless you think I was talking about lifetime earnings ) Not how long you get to pay.
12 months in a year.
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And since nobody has to pay the fine in a year, your comparison was either meaningless or it was fear-mongering. The average earner might complain to a judge, "but $3,000 is more than I gross in four months!" but the judge will reply, "well, you've got 26 months to pay it off - you can do the math, but it'll be $17.86 a week."
But even then, your math was off. The BLS states the average American's wage is $693 a week. After 40% taxes (a fraction more than this year's average), that's $21,621.60 a year. $3,000 is only 13.875% of that take-home pay, less than half of the 30% you claimed in your OP.
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So, based on your calculations, one ticket in VA will cause you to give 53.9% of your labor to the government.
Thats from January into July.
This is what you are defending?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:21:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
So, based on your calculations, one ticket in VA will cause you to give 53.9% of your labor to the government.
Thats from January into July.
This is what you are defending? |
You should get a ticket for moving those goalposts so fast. Whatcha got in there, a Hemi? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:26:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
So, based on your calculations, one ticket in VA will cause you to give 53.9% of your labor to the government.
Thats from January into July.
This is what you are defending? |
You should get a ticket for moving those goalposts so fast. Whatcha got in there, a Hemi?
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The moving goal post accusation is generally used when one is caught in the net.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:39:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The moving goal post accusation is generally used when one is caught in the net. |
Not in this case. You claimed that $3,000 "is about 30% ofthe average Americans [sic] income" after taxes. I pointed out that that's not true, but rather than admit your mistake, you accused me of "defending" giving 53.9% of one's labor to the government. Telling you that you're wrong about how draconian the system is is not a "defense" of the current system.
You would apparently prefer the total be 70%, as it would be if your OP was correct. But frankly, for people committing serious infractions of the law, I think 100% for 26 months is at times too low a figure to redress the wrongs they commit. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 20:57:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The moving goal post accusation is generally used when one is caught in the net. |
Not in this case. You claimed that $3,000 "is about 30% ofthe average Americans [sic] income" after taxes. I pointed out that that's not true, but rather than admit your mistake, you accused me of "defending" giving 53.9% of one's labor to the government. Telling you that you're wrong about how draconian the system is is not a "defense" of the current system.
You would apparently prefer the total be 70%, as it would be if your OP was correct. But frankly, for people committing serious infractions of the law, I think 100% for 26 months is at times too low a figure to redress the wrongs they commit.
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Yes, I was off by a factor of two. Your calculations had a factor of 7.8. Two is much closer than 7.8 to reality, therefore my mistake was much closer to reality than yours.
Are you defending working for the government(instead of your family)on average almost 5 months a year?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 21:36:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Yes, I was off by a factor of two. Your calculations had a factor of 7.8. Two is much closer than 7.8 to reality, therefore my mistake was much closer to reality than yours. |
I made no mistake. A three-thousand-dollar ticket will cost $17.86 per week, or just 3.8% of the average American's take-home pay.
By the way, it's just 3.03% of the average Virginian's take-home pay, to really compare apples to apples.| Are you defending working for the government(instead of your family)on average almost 5 months a year? |
No, I'm criticizing your math.
But if you're going to talk in terms of working for the government, then you must acknowledge that nobody has to pay the $3,000 fine in just one year, and it only affects Virginians, making my %3.03 percent figure the correct one to use. A first-time drunk driver will have to work for the government for 43% of 26 months, while a driver who doesn't get a DUI will work for the government for 40% of the same 26 months. And a murderer will get to work for the government 100% of the time for 25 years to life. Such is crime and punishment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 03:45:08 [Permalink]
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Dave, keep buying those deals "no money down ","26 easy payments".
I was stating the amount of the fine in relation to a yearly earning. By the way the 40% figure is incorrect once you start to add all of the taxes and fees and not just payroll taxes.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 05:15:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
It matters not how long the offender has to pay, it is still 30% of the average earners income in a year.
12 months in a year by the way. |
As has been explained to you, if an item has to be paid off over a period of X months, then figuring the cost of that item in relation to what one earns only makes sense if you consider what one earns over that same period.
Otherwise, the figure is meaningless. For instance, the $3000 figure is over 400% more than what a person makes in a week. Saying "400% more" sure sounds frightening, but when you realize that you don't have to pay the fine in one week, it loses its meaning altogether.
Is a $3000 fine for a first-time DUI offender high? There are compelling arguments from both sides and myriad factors must be considered. But trying to argue that it's too high because it's too large a percentage of a person's annual income is meaningless when the fine has to be paid out over 26 months and not 12 month (the number of months in a year, as you have now repeated enough times to look like a little obnoxious baby and not someone who's interested in an actual debate). |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 05:16:37 [Permalink]
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Yeah. Well, anyway, if the article is correct, that this is a way to raise funds, that is ridiculous. The way you raise funds, is to charge those that benefit most from the system, that is, the wealthy.
If it is a proven fact that $3,000 fines improve the lives of Virginians, then I'm all for it. Seems to me that it would be better to raise taxes to fund a better public transportation system and to raise taxes to fund evidence-based treatment for those with alcohol and drug problems.
Stop funding the brutal attack of other countries, stop funding the brtual attack on minorities and the poor called the War on Drugs, and you'd also have plenty of money to fix roads. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 05:35:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Yeah. Well, anyway, if the article is correct, that this is a way to raise funds, that is ridiculous. The way you raise funds, is to charge those that benefit most from the system, that is, the wealthy.
If it is a proven fact that $3,000 fines improve the lives of Virginians, then I'm all for it. Seems to me that it would be better to raise taxes to fund a better public transportation system and to raise taxes to fund evidence-based treatment for those with alcohol and drug problems.
Stop funding the brutal attack of other countries, stop funding the brtual attack on minorities and the poor called the War on Drugs, and you'd also have plenty of money to fix roads.
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I emphatically agree!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 07:55:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, keep buying those deals "no money down ","26 easy payments". |
What "deal" am I buying?| I was stating the amount of the fine in relation to a yearly earning. |
I know, and because the fine is amortized over 26 months, you were wrong to make such a comparison.| By the way the 40% figure is incorrect once you start to add all of the taxes and fees and not just payroll taxes. |
Actually, the 40% figure is wrong because I misread the report. It's actually 32.7% for Virginians (and the nation as a whole), and that includes income, social insurance (including employer portion), sales, excise, property, corporate income, estate and gift taxes, as well as some miscellaneous and other business taxes.
So, the average Virginian, making $982.75 a week, drops $321.36 of it in taxes, and possibly another 2.7% of the net (1.82% of the gross) to pay off a $3,000 ticket. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 10:18:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
My statement was that the amount was about 30% of a yearly earning.
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You never said that in your first post.
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How could we possibly have any idea about what you think, especially in the light of most of us wondering if there is any thought process active at all...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 07/02/2007 : 10:26:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I was stating the amount of the fine in relation to a yearly earning. |
No you didn't.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 11:13:50 [Permalink]
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Just for the sake of comparison:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...The way you raise funds, is to charge those that benefit most from the system, that is, the wealthy... |
In a recent SFN thread titled "Should we have government?" - I wrote about taxing along similar lines:
Posted by Chippewa
I favor big "tax & spend" government* with proper taxation of wealthy citizens and corporations and spending on social, cultural and scientific opportunities.
*(As opposed to a fake small government that is actually a big government with enormous debt and monies devoted to hoarding, death and war profits for its elite members and narrow supporters.) |
To this, Jerome responded:
Originally posted by Jerome
(Adding percentages I didn't use.)
So, you favor taxing 49% of the population and spreading their labor over the other 51%? This would cause the producers by labor to become recipients of others labor; this would cause the lack of incentive, thus the lack of production. (Here everyone starves) |
To which I added:
Posted by Chippewa
I cited no percentages. You did. Again, you make up your own fantasies, accept them as facts, then attribute the lies to other members who post here. |
Yet in this thread:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Seems to me that it would be better to raise taxes to fund a better public transportation system and to raise taxes to fund evidence-based treatment for those with alcohol and drug problems.
Stop funding the brutal attack of other countries, stop funding the brutal attack on minorities and the poor called the War on Drugs, and you'd also have plenty of money to fix roads. |
Originally posted by Jerome
I emphatically agree! |
So Jerome has either come to his senses and now supports what Gorgo and I have said. Or, he's just trolling for inconsistent arguments.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2007 : 20:03:37 [Permalink]
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Chippewa, you really think what he said was the same as what you said.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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$3000 TICKETS?
