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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 16:35:19
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On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?
These ways of thinking -- cultivated, nurtured, indoctrinated from childhood on -- have been useful to those in power, and deadly for those out of power.
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And nationalism is given a special virulence when it is said to be blessed by Providence. Today we have a president, invading two countries in four years, who announced on the campaign trail in 2004 that God speaks through him.
We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.
We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.
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But of course, he has invaded more than two countries. He has economically attacked Iran and Korea as well.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Edited by - Gorgo on 07/03/2007 16:36:50
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 17:45:38 [Permalink]
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Personally, I will be flying Old Glory to celebrate our Constitution, in face of all the efforts of the various stripes of theonazis, foreign and domestic, to destroy it.
I would love to see the planet governed by a benign and democratic world government. But we are nowhere near such an ideal, and so I will stand by the imperfect national government we have, and fight to fully wrest it from the clutches of its domestic enemies.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:36:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Personally, I will be flying Old Glory to celebrate our Constitution, in face of all the efforts of the various stripes of theonazis, foreign and domestic, to destroy it.
I would love to see the planet governed by a benign and democratic world government. But we are nowhere near such an ideal, and so I will stand by the imperfect national government we have, and fight to fully wrest it from the clutches of its domestic enemies.
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A world wide government is much closer than you think. Psst, thats why America is in the middle east.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:48:13 [Permalink]
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Ricky said:
The author seems to imply that the two are in conflict. I disagree. Because nationalism isn't blind faith. We don't love our leaders unconditionally. In fact, I would say it is in the spirit of nationalism to hate our leaders that hurt our country, as well as others.
But perhaps I have a different idea of what nationalism is than what many Americans would think. |
Nationalism isn't always bad, just when it is taken to an extreme. Often the word is used to mean excessive patriotism, like so many of the religious right-wing in the US today practice. Claiming a person who objects to the war is supporting the terrorists is a form of nationalism, taken to an extreme.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:53:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Ricky said:
The author seems to imply that the two are in conflict. I disagree. Because nationalism isn't blind faith. We don't love our leaders unconditionally. In fact, I would say it is in the spirit of nationalism to hate our leaders that hurt our country, as well as others.
But perhaps I have a different idea of what nationalism is than what many Americans would think. |
Nationalism isn't always bad, just when it is taken to an extreme. Often the word is used to mean excessive patriotism, like so many of the religious right-wing in the US today practice. Claiming a person who objects to the war is supporting the terrorists is a form of nationalism, taken to an extreme.
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Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:38:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dude
Ricky said:
The author seems to imply that the two are in conflict. I disagree. Because nationalism isn't blind faith. We don't love our leaders unconditionally. In fact, I would say it is in the spirit of nationalism to hate our leaders that hurt our country, as well as others.
But perhaps I have a different idea of what nationalism is than what many Americans would think. |
Nationalism isn't always bad, just when it is taken to an extreme. Often the word is used to mean excessive patriotism, like so many of the religious right-wing in the US today practice. Claiming a person who objects to the war is supporting the terrorists is a form of nationalism, taken to an extreme.
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Much in the same way that claiming that someone who believes in God is either insane or stupid.
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Of course. Why not both?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:46:15 [Permalink]
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Halfmooner, those statements are examples of bias based solely on disagreement.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 04:11:34 [Permalink]
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I think part of what's being said here is that Bush is not some aberration. This kind of destructive behavior is what this nation is.
The flag is a military standard which glorifies this destructive behavior. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 04:46:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, those statements are examples of bias based solely on disagreement.
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Of course I'm "biased." That's simply a synonym for having opinions. I'm pretty much open about mine. And, anyway, how could my irreligion possibly be in disagreement with you? After all, haven't you repeatedly claimed that you were not religious? Or are you finally withdrawing that claim now?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 05:33:05 [Permalink]
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Gripe, gripe, gripe... Wah Wah.....
He needs to stop belly-aching and bitching for one day and think about the ideals as they should be, not as they are. About what the founder's meant, and not what the government says they mean. Now I am not one of those "America, love it or leave it" but if you despise it, and cannot seperate the practice from the practisioners (even though you probably take part in the oractice).... Now I am not one of those "America, love it or leave it" but if you despise it, and cannot seperate the practice from the practisioners (even though the writer probably takes part in the practice)....
THERE'S THE FUCKNG DOOR.
So, instead of lighting off those fireworks, read some Jefferson, Hamilton, Paine, Washington, etc. etc. etc. Ok, OK.... at least do it before or after the fireworks.
Wishing you all strict interpretation...and
Peace
Joe |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 05:53:21 [Permalink]
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You're not saying love it or leave it, but love it or leave it. And you're saying it to someone who is talking about ideals, not griping, and to someone who was a soldier in WWII. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 06:49:33 [Permalink]
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The Forth of July as someone whom I agree with sees it: Faith and the Fourth: Wave the flag for separation of church and state
Posted 9:20 am | Printer Friendly | Spotlight
Guest Post by Morbo
This is the time of year when we rhapsodize about what makes America special. Lots of things make America special, but this Fourth of July I'd like to focus on one thing that I believe is unique: the way we deal with religion and government.
I write about church-state issues a lot on this blog. It's not because I fancy myself some kind of expert but rather because I see the relationship between church and state in America as one of the best things about this country, a true gift to the rest of the world, if other countries are brave enough to take it.
Our founders had lots of good ideas, of course — but few can be called truly American, since most of them were borrowed from other societies. The ancient Greeks had democracy. The Romans had republican government for a while. Habeas Corpus? It's in the Magna Carta.
This is not to say that the United States did not refine or improve these concepts. We did. But our founders did not come up with them. They did devise the American church-state model from whole cloth. From the research I've done, it seems that no other nation or peoples set up religious freedom the way we did with a two-pronged guarantee of free exercise of religion and no establishment. I call it what it is: separation of church and state. And it works.
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Raise a glass to the wisdom of the nations founders and lay flaming damnation upon those who would soil our heritage by denying it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/04/2007 06:52:46 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 10:50:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halfmooner, those statements are examples of bias based solely on disagreement.
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Of course I'm "biased." That's simply a synonym for having opinions. I'm pretty much open about mine. And, anyway, how could my irreligion possibly be in disagreement with you? After all, haven't you repeatedly claimed that you were not religious? Or are you finally withdrawing that claim now?
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What are you arguing? I only gave an example that could be understood from an atheist point of view as an agreement to what Dude said.
I do not believe in man made religion. This fact has not changed in many decades.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:49:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not believe in man made religion. |
Yet you read the Bible and follow it as a moral guide? Who are you trying to kid but yourself?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:55:39 [Permalink]
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Raise a glass to the wisdom of the nations founders and lay flaming damnation upon those who would soil our heritage by denying it.
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Yeah, I'm all for that as far as it goes. Has little to do with the flag. I like dollar fries and Quizno's Subs too. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Put Away the Flags
