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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 18:53:00 [Permalink]
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Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 19:35:32 [Permalink]
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Filthy has stated the original, correct biological purpose of life: To produce more life. (Been there, done that.) But as I'm sure Fil would agree, in practice, we complex humans make up our own purpose(s) in life. They need not be singular. I agree with Kurt Vonnegut's, as expressed in my present sig, but I also have others. One of these is to fight, to the modest degree I can, against the forces of ignorance and prejudice that dominate our world.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2007 : 02:56:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by filthy
The main purpose of being alive is to contribute to the gene pool of the species. All else is secondary.
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Does that mean impregnating as many women as possible if you are a man?
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Biologically, yes.
Unfortunatly, social restrictions prevent such happy promiscuity. And I remind that we are not the only animals afflicted with such restrictions. All social species have them, from antelopes to ants, to (hehehe) naked mole rats.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 04:48:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways?
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Then why serve a God? Why not just do good for the sake of doing good?
And, just an observation, for someone who claims no religion, no expectation of everlasting life, you sure rely upon the bible as a source of evidence an awful lot. Why is that? |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:10:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways? |
If serving others makes you happy how is that not a selfish motivation? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 08:15:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dv82matt
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways? |
If serving others makes you happy how is that not a selfish motivation?
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Yeah, I'm not really sure if there is such a thing as being truly altruistic. But it's still better to do good deeds, for whatever reason, than to not do good deeds.
Maybe the guy who puts his body on a grenade to save his comrades is being altruistic. I dunno…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 08:24:04 [Permalink]
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| I live to help and serve other people, but I hate doing it. Does that make me altruistic? |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 08:48:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways?
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Then why serve a God? Why not just do good for the sake of doing good?
And, just an observation, for someone who claims no religion, no expectation of everlasting life, you sure rely upon the bible as a source of evidence an awful lot. Why is that?
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Because if you do it for the "sake of doing good" you find yourself reverting back to the childish attitudes of selfishness. There needs to be a reason outside of the self.
Where have I used the bible as a source. I think only once, and that was used to show that man made religion has been a problem for a long time; the book was written a long time ago, it would be a valid source for this question.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 08:51:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dv82matt
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Moakley asked:
| Do you have any reason for us to believe that you serve God without the hope or expectation of reward. Everlasting life. Isn't that rather selfish of you? To do good with the expectation of a much greater reward. |
Nope, because I do not serve others for a reward. I have no expectation of "everlasting life". I can tell you once I stopped serving myself my life became much happier; why would I revert to those child like ways? |
If serving others makes you happy how is that not a selfish motivation?
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I do not serve others to make me happy. It is a byproduct. When I made the decision to no longer serve myself first, I did not think that this in it self would cause happiness.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 08:56:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Cuneiformist
I live to help and serve other people, but I hate doing it. Does that make me altruistic?
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I do not think so. Altruistic is putting others needs in front of your own to your detriment. I guess there are degrees to all of this. I believe in serving others without deriving personal benefit, but I do not believe in serving others to ones detriment.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 09:30:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by dv82matt
If serving others makes you happy how is that not a selfish motivation?
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Yeah, I'm not really sure if there is such a thing as being truly altruistic. But it's still better to do good deeds, for whatever reason, than to not do good deeds.
Maybe the guy who puts his body on a grenade to save his comrades is being altruistic. I dunno… |
Well I was mostly just pointing out the flaw in Jerome's reasoning, but to address the issue of altruism I don't think it nessessarily conflicts with selfishness. A person can be altruistic and selfish at the same time. In fact I would say that selfish motivations can, and often do, lead to altruistic behaviours.
I have not made a distinction between selfishness and self-interest but maybe I should. Selfishness has a negative connotation to most people and tends to describe a shortsighted self-interest which is ultimately self-defeating.
I figured that Jerome would not acknowledge any moral distinction between "greedy selfishness" and "enlightened self-interest", since if he were to allow such a distinction he would have to dismount his high horse, so I didn't bother making it. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 09:33:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not serve others to make me happy. It is a byproduct. When I made the decision to no longer serve myself first, I did not think that this in it self would cause happiness. |
You're fooling yourself if you think that positive reinforcement doesn't affect why you do things. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 09:38:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dv82matt
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not serve others to make me happy. It is a byproduct. When I made the decision to no longer serve myself first, I did not think that this in it self would cause happiness. |
You're fooling yourself if you think that positive reinforcement doesn't affect why you do things.
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By your statement it seems you think man nothing more than an animal that is manipulated by stimuli. I disagree with this assessment of man. We are both looking at this question from a different starting point, I am not sure you will understand what I think based on this. Although I do understand your reasoning, as I once thought the same of the human condition.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 10:05:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
By your statement it seems you think man nothing more than an animal that is manipulated by stimuli. I disagree with this assessment of man. We are both looking at this question from a different starting point, I am not sure you will understand what I think based on this. Although I do understand your reasoning, as I once thought the same of the human condition. |
What is your starting point?
On the main topic of the thread "meaning of life" questions are a pet peeve of mine because they are so poorly worded as to be essentially meaningless. The question is literally asking for a definition of life but from the context it is clear that a reference to a dictionary would not be considered an acceptable answer.
Might as well ask, "What is your personal meaning of house?" now that's profound. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 13:36:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by dv82matt
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
I do not serve others to make me happy. It is a byproduct. When I made the decision to no longer serve myself first, I did not think that this in it self would cause happiness. |
You're fooling yourself if you think that positive reinforcement doesn't affect why you do things.
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By your statement it seems you think man nothing more than an animal that is manipulated by stimuli. I disagree with this assessment of man. We are both looking at this question from a different starting point, I am not sure you will understand what I think based on this. Although I do understand your reasoning, as I once thought the same of the human condition.
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And that is not what humans are? Just animals, like every other single mammal in this rock?
I don't see why people try to keep the notion that humans are somewhat better than, or different of, the rest of Animalia. But then, I don't see anything wrong with being an animal, so maybe I'm the weird one. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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"What is your personal meaning of life?"
