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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:26:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How is the free exchange of service between a doctor and a patient not liberty? |
The idea that all such exchanges will be equal is unreasonably idealistic. What should a doctor do in the case of the homeless, jobless guy who requires several thousand dollars in emergency surgery after being hit by a car? Let him die? What if the doctor doesn't know the guy is homeless and jobless? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:33:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
How is the free exchange of service between a doctor and a patient not liberty? |
The idea that all such exchanges will be equal is unreasonably idealistic. What should a doctor do in the case of the homeless, jobless guy who requires several thousand dollars in emergency surgery after being hit by a car? Let him die? What if the doctor doesn't know the guy is homeless and jobless?
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Many doctors would choose to do pro bono work much like lawyers. In fact we see examples of this all the time.
Liberty is not equality. The idea of equality is idealistic.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:38:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Many doctors would choose to do pro bono work much like lawyers. In fact we see examples of this all the time. |
Being forced to do pro bono work is not liberty.| Liberty is not equality. The idea of equality is idealistic. |
How could the idea that some people shouldn't have equal liberty be liberty? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:44:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Many doctors would choose to do pro bono work much like lawyers. In fact we see examples of this all the time. |
Being forced to do pro bono work is not liberty.| Liberty is not equality. The idea of equality is idealistic. |
How could the idea that some people shouldn't have equal liberty be liberty?
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Pro bono work by definition is not forced.
What is your understanding of liberty?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:50:50 [Permalink]
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What do you mean by "This is not your money"?
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Read what I wrote and think about it, rather than listening to the noises in your head. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2007 : 08:53:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What do you mean by "This is not your money"?
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Read what I wrote and think about it, rather than listening to the noises in your head.
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It sounds like you believe that all things truly belong to all people. Do you understand that communism is a proven failure?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:01:51 [Permalink]
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It sounds like you believe that all things truly belong to all people. Do you understand that communism is a proven failure?
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Again, you're listening to your beliefs, rather than looking at what people write and responding to that. Where does it say that I "believe that all things truly belong to all people," and there fore "I believe" in what you think communism is?
What I said is that this thing that you call your money, is not your money IN THIS SOCIETY, not some fictional society that you were taught existed, and is now extinct. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:23:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
It sounds like you believe that all things truly belong to all people. Do you understand that communism is a proven failure?
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Again, you're listening to your beliefs, rather than looking at what people write and responding to that. Where does it say that I "believe that all things truly belong to all people," and there fore "I believe" in what you think communism is?
What I said is that this thing that you call your money, is not your money IN THIS SOCIETY, not some fictional society that you were taught existed, and is now extinct.
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I am trying to understand you.
In this society:
What is money?
Who owns this money?
Who owns the profit of your labor?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:27:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Pro bono work by definition is not forced. |
Then tell me what a doctor in an emergency room should do if presented with an unconscious guy with no wallet who needs several thousand dollars of care. If he patches up the guy, only to find out later that the patient has no ability to pay the bill (even if willing), then the doctor has been forced to do his work for free.
Lawyers always know ahead of time that they're doing pro bono work. Doctors have no such ability to be fully informed.| What is your understanding of liberty? |
Politically or philosophically? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:41:49 [Permalink]
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I am trying to understand you.
In this society:
What is money?
Who owns this money?
Who owns the profit of your labor?
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I doubt that we really have much disagreement on the first point, so unless you wanted to come up with a definition that makes some point, I'll assume you weren't really asking for a definition of money.
The point isn't who owns the money so much as who controls the money, and that tends to be them that's got it.
Again, there is not just one method for obtaining that control. As I've stated, and which you seem to ignore, one such method of creating poverty is the Federal Reserve. There are many others. One is the war against the people of Iraq.
As to the last point, labor has little to do with money. It has more to do with race, gender and genetics. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 09:45:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Then tell me what a doctor in an emergency room should do if presented with an unconscious guy with no wallet who needs several thousand dollars of care. If he patches up the guy, only to find out later that the patient has no ability to pay the bill (even if willing), then the doctor has been forced to do his work for free.
Lawyers always know ahead of time that they're doing pro bono work. Doctors have no such ability to be fully informed. |
A solution can be found. There are many options. One could pay over time. Taking a minor problem and extrapolating the solution on an entire population is inherently unequal and the opposite of liberty.
Politically or philosophically?
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Both.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:00:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I doubt that we really have much disagreement on the first point, so unless you wanted to come up with a definition that makes some point, I'll assume you weren't really asking for a definition of money. |
If your definition at its base is a tool; then yes we agree.
The point isn't who owns the money so much as who controls the money, and that tends to be them that's got it.
Again, there is not just one method for obtaining that control. As I've stated, and which you seem to ignore, one such method of creating poverty is the Federal Reserve. There are many others. One is the war against the people of Iraq. |
Agreed about the control of money.
Agreed about the Federal Reserve.
Agreed about most wars including the current middle east excursions.
| As to the last point, labor has little to do with money. It has more to do with race, gender and genetics. |
Ahh, but the profits of your labor are represented by the current tool of transaction (money). If money is controlled than your labor is controlled and the profit of your labor is controlled.
I think we agree much more than you imagine.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:05:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
A solution can be found. There are many options. One could pay over time. Taking a minor problem and extrapolating the solution on an entire population is inherently unequal and the opposite of liberty. |
A minor problem? How many people can afford medical care? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 10:11:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
A solution can be found. There are many options. One could pay over time. Taking a minor problem and extrapolating the solution on an entire population is inherently unequal and the opposite of liberty. |
A minor problem? How many people can afford medical care?
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Most, how many people can not?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Sicko
