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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:22:04 [Permalink]
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The government should not be used to transfer anyones profit from labor to another.
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Fine. First get the wealthy off the dole, and then come and talk to me about trying to stop those who would try to get a little for everyone else. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/22/2007 17:23:01 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:27:33 [Permalink]
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Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement.
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Sounds like a highly emotional response. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:31:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
The government should not be used to transfer anyones profit from labor to another.
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Fine. First get the wealthy off the dole, and then come and talk to me about trying to stop those who would try to get a little for everyone else.
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I would like this; but it seems that the control over all citizens is directly tied to control over their profit from labor. As such the political elite will never rescind this power. The last days of Rome are here. It is fabulous to be able to watch this. A thousand years from now people will study this time in history as a corollary to the fall of Rome.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:34:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Whining tripe of people who need others to care for their needs. Nothing less than failing to move out of mommies basement.
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Sounds like a highly emotional response.
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More of a response to allow the reader to understand the childlike qualities of the presented arguments foundation.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 18:20:38 [Permalink]
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| The government should not be used to transfer anyones profit from labor to another. |
You keep talking about profits from labor as if that itself is some sort of fair thing. How fair is it for a CEO to make millions of dollars while a steel workers busts his butt working an average of 50 hours a week in order to eek out a decent living, and then has his pension cut so he has to get a second job in his later years instead of retiring? What profits we earn from our labor is based on what society values. You could try to make the argument that individuals could make some attempt to earn more doing something else, but that is rather absurd when you realize that different individuals come from different situations and possess different limited sets of skills and potential to begin with. It isn't enough to want to make more money. It isn't enough to be willing to work hard. In order to make serious dough in society, one must have 1.)the motivation and 2.)the natural skill and 3.)the access to proper training/experience in an area which society happens to put a lot of monetary value. Not everyone is going to have these three things, and to allow them to suffer with regards to their basic needs based on some arbitrary concept of property is sick. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/22/2007 18:22:01 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 18:38:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
| The government should not be used to transfer anyones profit from labor to another. |
You keep talking about profits from labor as if that itself is some sort of fair thing. How fair is it for a CEO to make millions of dollars while a steel workers busts his butt working an average of 50 hours a week in order to eek out a decent living, and then has his pension cut so he has to get a second job in his later years instead of retiring? What profits we earn from our labor is based on what society values. You could try to make the argument that individuals could make some attempt to earn more doing something else, but that is rather absurd when you realize that different individuals come from different situations and possess different limited sets of skills and potential to begin with. It isn't enough to want to make more money. It isn't enough to be willing to work hard. In order to make serious dough in society, one must have 1.)the motivation and 2.)the natural skill and 3.)the access to proper training/experience in an area which society happens to put a lot of monetary value. Not everyone is going to have these three things, and to allow them to suffer with regards to their basic needs based on some arbitrary concept of property is sick.
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Without the CEO running the company there is no job for the worker.
Life is not fair. Michael Jordan can jump higher than most; this is not fair.
You propose to remedy unfairness by taking from the producers of society and giving to the non producers. Please explain how this could possibly be construed as fair. Once the producers see this, they move on. Look at the struggles Canada has with long lines for health care because many doctors have moved on. People are dying in line!
Communism is an abject failure. Why do espouse its spirit?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 06:45:57 [Permalink]
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Communism is an abject failure. Why do espouse its spirit?
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Capitalism is an abject failure as well. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 07:07:50 [Permalink]
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No shit, Sherlock. People, however, have the capability to be fair. An older child can beat up a little kid and take their lunch, but if adults are vigilant, they can stop this from happening. You talk about doctors doing pro bono work - why should they bother? Why should anyone help anyone else at their own expense? After all, life is not fair.
| You propose to remedy unfairness by taking from the producers of society and giving to the non producers. Please explain how this could possibly be construed as fair. |
I don't have to show you anything because the vast majority of the world agrees with me. If you ask the average American, if you ask the average rich American who pays the highest taxes, whether they mind having some portion of their income taken as tax dollars if used for things such as roads, firemen, police, libraries, museums, education, health care, etc., they are fine with it so long as they still have a higher standard of living and more income by comparison. Nobody is suggesting that we have taxes progressive to the point of equally leveling everyone's income. But not I or anyone else is going to cry over somebody being only able to buy one vacation house instead of two, or having to buy a smaller yacht, and having to spend a little less on their vacation to Hawaii this year.
You can talk and talk until your tongue falls out about how taxes cripple working Americans, but the fact of the matter is that the average cost of health care and higher education is much greater than what people in that income bracket pay in taxes. And people on this forum have already provided you with amble, credible evidence that the high price of health care cannot exclusively or even mainly be blamed on Medicare and other slight forms of socialized medicine in this country.
| Once the producers see this, they move on. Look at the struggles Canada has with long lines for health care because many doctors have moved on. People are dying in line! |
You are a fucking moron. Far more people (proportionate to our different population sizes mind you) die in America because they are uninsured or under-insured than Canadians die from waiting in line. Canadians on average have a lower infant mortality count, longer lives, and better overall health. France has extremely socialized medicine and they have the highest quality of care in the world. The UK, Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Denmark, Spain, Portugal, Japan, South Korea - ALL BETTER QUALITY HEALTH CARE THAN THE US. And they all have socialized systems. Show us they are broken.
Shut up until you get some evidence for your pathetic, false, and broken record claims. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 08:08:46 [Permalink]
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I had a thought, which is rare. If medical doctors really are leaving Canada at the rate you say Jerome and we instituted a single payer system, where would they run to? That would mean every western nations people would be covered by a single payer system. Do you think those doctors would take off for some third world country?
Even in Canada, it is still a high paying profession when compared with most others professions that they could be doing…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:34:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I had a thought, which is rare. If medical doctors really are leaving Canada at the rate you say Jerome and we instituted a single payer system, where would they run to? That would mean every western nations people would be covered by a single payer system. Do you think those doctors would take off for some third world country?
Even in Canada, it is still a high paying profession when compared with most others professions that they could be doing…
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Your argument to make all systems bad such that the doctors will have to stay is asinine.
What if the intelligent people decided not to be doctors and when into another field?
Would we then force people to become doctors?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:45:05 [Permalink]
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Marfknox, this 25 minute documentary produced prior to Sicko shows some of the awful truth about the Canadian health care system which you seem to think of as roses and perfume.
DEAD MEAT tells the truth from the mouths of Canadians.
By the way, if you are going to call someone a "fucking moron", you should at least present factual evidence. The Japanese do not have a socialized health care system.
Scary movies are not based in fact. To be terrified by a movie despite claiming to have good health care is nothing less than emotion ruling over rational thought.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:50:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Communism is an abject failure. Why do espouse its spirit?
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Capitalism is an abject failure as well.
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How so? The poor in America have more of most things than the middle class in communistic and socialized countries.
Like any man made system capitalism has its faults. Currently it is the best for the most people. How do you think Europe can afford its socialized system? Their defense has been payed for by the free market of America for half a century. The same goes for Canada. How well would Canadas socialized society work if they payed for more than three capital ships for their defense?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:53:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Kil
I had a thought, which is rare. If medical doctors really are leaving Canada at the rate you say Jerome and we instituted a single payer system, where would they run to? That would mean every western nations people would be covered by a single payer system. Do you think those doctors would take off for some third world country?
Even in Canada, it is still a high paying profession when compared with most others professions that they could be doing… |
Your argument to make all systems bad such that the doctors will have to stay is asinine. |
This is such a poorly-disguised attempt at trollery (given what Kil actually said) that I have little choice:[warning]Jerome, this is your third and final official warning for trolling.[/warning]
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What?
That was a proper response to the idea of changing a working system into a bad system to equalize the field with a neighbors bad system.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:58:46 [Permalink]
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| Jerome's behavior may or may not be worthy of reprimand, but once again, I'm a little taken aback that behavior like Martha's is then at least tacitly, if not overtly, approved by the administration. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Sicko
Official Warning