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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:17:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Jerome's behavior may or may not be worthy of reprimand, but once again, I'm a little taken aback that behavior like Martha's is then at least tacitly, if not overtly, approved by the administration. |
I expressed my dismay at her earlier language. Did she do it again? Dammit, she did.
marf, cut it the hell out. You know how to argue. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:20:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What?
That was a proper response to the idea of changing a working system into a bad system to equalize the field with a neighbors bad system. |
That was clearly not the intent of Kil's post. It wasn't a plan, it was a hypothetical situation. If you can't tell the difference, I'm sure that we can't help you. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:33:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What?
That was a proper response to the idea of changing a working system into a bad system to equalize the field with a neighbors bad system. |
That was clearly not the intent of Kil's post. It wasn't a plan, it was a hypothetical situation. If you can't tell the difference, I'm sure that we can't help you.
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The "hypothetical" situation would have results. I pointed out the results "hypothetically".
I have respect for Kil; he is honest in his thinking. You assuming my intention is nothing less than being a bigot.
Let us post in the "Troll" tread I created and put our cards on the table.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:44:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
The "hypothetical" situation would have results. I pointed out the results "hypothetically". |
You should have done so without ascribing "asinine" motives to Kil.| I have respect for Kil; he is honest in his thinking. You assuming my intention is nothing less than being a bigot. |
Then you're a bigot for assuming that Kil was calling for a single-payer system in order to make everything equally bad. This issue isn't being discussed in Congress so that doctors will stop leaving Canada, and it's not being discussed at Kil's request there, either. He clearly asked what if such a plan gets implemented here, not because doing so would equalize the field, but because it's a serious possibility. Interpreting his question as if equalization were the goal and then calling it asinine is to call Kil a complete moron.| Let us post in the "Troll" tread I created and put our cards on the table. |
Nah, let's not get the subjects of the threads confused. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 19:53:14 [Permalink]
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Dave, I do not think you know the meaning of the word as your description of your assumption of my intention and meaing has nothing to do with definition of the word.
A foolish idea does not make someone a moron.
I can attest to this fact!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 22:04:08 [Permalink]
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Well golly. Jerome, you did indeed get me wrong on that post. I was simply pondering what could possibly be an interesting conundrum for Canadian doctors who want to leave their system but continue practicing should we institute a single payer system. I was in no way suggesting a solution to Canada's health care problems, or even our own.
Now I'm sorry I posted my musings.
I think it's worth noting that Dave understood what I was saying and you did not. Perhaps you are not aware of how much your bias taints what you take from the words you read…
Sorry you got banned over this. Follow the instructions Dave gave to you…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 13:20:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Gorgo
Capitalism is an abject failure as well.
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How so? The poor in America have more of most things than the middle class in communistic and socialized countries. |
The only European country I can think of that qualifies to this statement is Albania. Therefor I consider this assertion patently false. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 13:38:54 [Permalink]
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Here is my 2 cents worth of thought on the subject of health-care:
Even before I got into trouble, I loved the Universal Health-care that Sweden keeps tax funded.
I knew that I was paying more through taxes than I got back through health care. But then, I'm a socialist at heart. I don't mind paying a little higher taxes than I would have to elsewhere, because I know that money is being put to good use. Less fortunate people are just that... less fortunate, and my extra tax means that someone else can have their insulin shot for free, or get the cancer treatment that would save their life before it was too late.
The Swedish Health Insurance system has an overhead of only 2,2% which is quite less than any private insurance company would ever have. Maybe even a tenth of a private company. That means that what I pay in tax is more efficiently used in the governmental insurance system, than if I paid a private insurance company. And: I know that I'm insured and don't have to worry about the insurance company trying to weasel out of its responsibility of taking care of me.
Then a bad sporting accident happened to me, and I broke the neck of the femur.
The insurance system kicked in, and paid the surgery (as well as about 80% of the income loss during my sick leave). Now, the old injury resulted in Secondary Osteoarthritis, for which I am medicated. The insurance cap my medication expenses at about $250US per year, the rest of the medication I get for free. Unfortunately, the medication gave me a bleeding ulcer. I was hospitalised for two days at an emergency ward and given 2 liters of blood transfusion to get me on my feet if not fully restore my blood count.
For all this, I only pay a token sum each time I visit the hospital.
I grew up in my country understanding that sometimes shit happens to people, but if we all accept some extra taxes, everyone would grow up and live in the country where people have the same opportunities of good health. No matter if they were fortunate to have good genes, good luck, rich parents or not. This extra burden I carry proudly, because in this regard I consider myself living in the greatest country in world.
Now, I've said my piece.
You may now continue bickering about the merits of capitalist health care, while I tune out...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 16:07:27 [Permalink]
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Jerome is banned, but perhaps he is still reading, and it is possible he'll get to come back, so I'll bother responding to this:
| Marfknox, this 25 minute documentary produced prior to Sicko shows some of the awful truth about the Canadian health care system which you seem to think of as roses and perfume. |
I never said it was roses and perfume or implied anything of the sort. I cited hard facts that say that the overall health of Canadians is better and studies from the World Health Organization which claim that Canada's quality of health care per capita is better than the United States. In short, I said that it was on average better than in the USA, and consider what I think of US health care, that isn't exactly a compliment toward Canada. If I said that eating dirt is better than eating dogcrap would you say I was calling the dirt “roses and perfume”?
| DEAD MEAT tells the truth from the mouths of Canadians. |
Just watched it. (I, unlike you, actually watch movies before I criticize them.) Not impressed. I find it hypocritical that you offer this video which relies entirely on personal stories, after rejecting my personal accounts which were buried within lots of other arguments. Michael Moore's film, if you bothered watching it, also has personal stories from Americans, just as horrific as these Canadian stories. Of course Moore also cites facts and other evidence that objectively compare the US healthcare system to other countries, which this film fails to do.
More comments on this pathetic film:
-I found it interesting that the ice-skaters went to Belgium for their hip surgery. Plane tickets to Belgium are very expensive, but apparently not expensive enough to get them to get their hip surgery in the USA.
-The woman who had her brain surgery cancelled twice indeed had an emotion story. The stress caused to her family was indeed terrible. However, I notice that she did eventually get it and appeared in good health. An American working class family with inadequate health insurance would have lost their house and possibly gone bankrupt. A poor person in America would have waited until they needed to go to an emergency room, and later been dropped off in skid row for not paying their bill. Hmmmmm, I wonder why Canada's health quality care per capita is better than the USA?
-A lot of film is wasted on comparing human health care to pet care and then arguing that the solution is “competition”. This would be what is called a false comparison. This may shock you, Jerome, but poor people rarely get any health care for their pets. They don't bother because they can't afford it, and the animal surely isn't going to argue about it. My mom had one of our cats put down because she developed a disease that cost $70. a month to treat, and she just couldn't afford it. Obviously that shouldn't be an option when we're talking about people. Human beings who are poor can't afford healthcare regardless of how low the prices fall. And people can't control whether they are going to have a cheap or expensive ailment.
-The film mentioned that only NK and Cuba also do not allow their citizens to purchase private health care. OK, so maybe that is a problem with Canada's system. I never said Canada was perfume and roses. I never said it was perfect or even great. However, in my argument I mentioned numerous other countries. You haven't mentioned any of them. You only shove forth this film that makes the illogical argument: “Canada's system isn't great, therefore America's system i |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 16:10:31 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | Jerome's behavior may or may not be worthy of reprimand, but once again, I'm a little taken aback that behavior like Martha's is then at least tacitly, if not overtly, approved by the administration. |
I know I'm totally being an ass, and honestly I kept waiting for an administrator to yell at me and snap me out of this burning, seething rage I feel for Jerome.
Although, in my defense, I have taken pains to couch all my vicious insults in counter arguments so that they would not be mere ad hom attacks.
Dave wrote: | marf, cut it the hell out. You know how to argue. |
OK. Sorry.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 20:20:01 [Permalink]
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I can't resist, especially living in "Killadelphia" where we had another 8 murders over the friggin' weekend - just one more response to Jerome:
| How so? The poor in America have more of most things than the middle class in communistic and socialized countries. |
Yeah, like gun violence. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2007 : 00:07:41 [Permalink]
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Interesting how Jeromes arguments in this thread use all the typical strategies that Creationists use.
The outright false statemement - such as the claim that health care in Japan is not paid for by the government.
The complete distortion - the claim that it is illegal to buy private health care in Canada (it isn't - you can even buy insurance for procedures not covered by medicare. What is illegal is private insurance for procedures covered by medicare.)
The invalid comparison to something completely evil (in this case North Korea).
When an false claim is pointed out he ignores this and keeps on going unperturbed by having his dishonesty pointed out. |
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
| Edited by - Ghost_Skeptic on 07/25/2007 00:08:19 |
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Sicko
