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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 22:52:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Val:
1) It presents the abuses detailed as commonplace or the norm instead of the exception. |
Well, actually Val I personally know of three cases, two involving my father and one involving Michelle that made the movie ring true. Both were denied by their HMO's and subsequently had to fight for common procedures. In two of those cases, it was life threatening. The HMO stalled so long in Michelle's case that she had have emergency surgery to remove her gallbladder. In the weeks leading up to that, her doctor kept asking the HMO for permission to do the surgery and the HMO kept stalling. That is until she became violently ill.
What he portrayed in that movie about HMO's, and what I know about them is pretty much the same thing…
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While I am sorry that happened to you, it is not the norm for most HMO's. I have both worked for and had to deal with HMO's. Some were great and helpful, and then there was Humana.
BCBS of Illinois was great to work with and they didn't dick around with their members for the most part. It has been my experience in the healthcare industry that Moore's examples are abberations and not the norm. Even Humana, souless beast that it was, rarely denied claims when delaying it would cause further expense.
Again, Moore does not show the whole story nor does he present a fair assessment of the US healthcare system. He misleads through omission. He can only claim that he doesn't lie because he does find the most extreme examples of abuse and presents a view of it. That view is by no means complete nor fair.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 04:34:11 [Permalink]
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I think most adults will walk away from the film understanding that what the movie shows are extreme aberrations of the system, and not necessarily the norm, although when profit takes over as the highest goal, problems will result.
I think we also understand that Cuba, since it is so poor, does not have a perfect health care system. In fact, while France is number one on someone's list, I understand that France does not have a perfect health care system.
So, I do not see any of this as a distortion. I don't think this stuff has to be explained to most adults.
I think the strongest message in the film is that for some reason people in the U.S. have bought into the idea that universal single-payer health care is nasty old socialism, and therefore bad. Also that democracy in other countries brought with it the idea that we can all make sure that everyone can have certain minimum benefits, and for some reason we got away from that here.
I think, to a large extent, that came because corporate America learned so well about propaganda. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 06:28:30 [Permalink]
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I'm not especially knowledgable about the US health care system...
Does this in any way tie in with what happened to WinAce? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 06:59:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I'm not especially knowledgable about the US health care system...
Does this in any way tie in with what happened to WinAce?
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Oh, good question. He needed a lung transplant and he was denied that by Medicaid on the grounds that the transplant might kill him. Of course, no transplant meant certain death to him so that decision was more than likely based on money. Allen made the point that the cost of his daily treatment him was adding up to more then the transplant would have cost. His doctors believed the procedure had a fair chance of greatly extending his life and kept writing to Medicaid for their approval.
We all know how that worked out…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 07:17:50 [Permalink]
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Jerome:
HMOs are a creature of government involvement. They were not popular until government interceded. Why would you want more government involvement with health care based on the poor record of the HMO? |
Moore talked about the origins of HMO's and how the government was complicit, right down to playing a taped conversation in the Nixon Whitehouse. The expansion of HMO's was a pro business move, and yes, government was clearly engaged in helping to create and promote the system.
But this really has no bearing on a single payer system. That is a whole other animal because it is not profit motivated.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:37:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Jerome:
HMOs are a creature of government involvement. They were not popular until government interceded. Why would you want more government involvement with health care based on the poor record of the HMO? |
Moore talked about the origins of HMO's and how the government was complicit, right down to playing a taped conversation in the Nixon Whitehouse. The expansion of HMO's was a pro business move, and yes, government was clearly engaged in helping to create and promote the system.
But this really has no bearing on a single payer system. That is a whole other animal because it is not profit motivated.
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If you take out the profit motive, you take away incentive. In this case the profit motive has been moved from the doctor to the HMO. Each has a different way of achieving profit; one serves at the pleasure of the consumer, the other profits through cutting overhead costs.
Why would we not want the doctors to have incentive to preform well?
Why would we want a system with no profit motive?
Do you have any examples of large scale operations that according to the consumers runs well despite no profit motive?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 11:54:14 [Permalink]
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Do you have any examples of large scale operations that according to the consumers runs well despite no profit motive?
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See France/Canada/England's health care system. Even Columbia's is better than the U.S. according to the WHO. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:03:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Do you have any examples of large scale operations that according to the consumers runs well despite no profit motive?
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See France/Canada/England's health care system. Even Columbia's is better than the U.S. according to the WHO.
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Canada has a doctor shortage.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/08/28/doctor-shortage.html
"In 2003, more than 1.2 million Canadians were unable to find a regular physician, according to Statistics Canada."
Less doctors inherently means less health care.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:07:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Do you have any examples of large scale operations that according to the consumers runs well despite no profit motive?
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See France/Canada/England's health care system. Even Columbia's is better than the U.S. according to the WHO.
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Long lines in England for diagnosis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5284646.stm
"Patients wait two years for scan"
I hope the patient does not get sicker whilst waiting.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 12:11:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Do you have any examples of large scale operations that according to the consumers runs well despite no profit motive?
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See France/Canada/England's health care system. Even Columbia's is better than the U.S. according to the WHO.
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France is having a hard time paying for the system.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3423159.stm
"The report says an ageing population and the high cost of advanced treatments will help push health spending past 9% of gross domestic product - one of the highest levels in the world."
9% of GDP is staggering.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 05:38:34 [Permalink]
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I wish there was an easy way to find: (for per capita comparisons):
The number of hemodialysis patients in Cuba. THere are thousands in the Greater Cincinnati area alone.
The number of nursing home beds.
The number of Gamma knifes (not sure of the technical term for this 3-D radiation technique).
The nuber of neo-natel intensive care beds. 54 at CHMC Cincinnati (level 1), many more in the area. Also (in 2000) 5 ECMO (Extra corporal membrane oxygenation)(think heart-lung bypass) for premieas. Cincinnati alone.
The long-term outlook for gunshot and other trauma victims.
The number of people on ventilators. A hundred + in this area alone.
The number of people receiveing feeding through g-tubes. Hundreds, this area alone.
Also, the number of transplants, by category, done each year. The number and survival rate of various cancers. The availability of radiation machines, and the average wait-time for the commencement of treatment if none are immediatly available.
I agree that a fight for increased wellness care for everyone is good, and is a fight I fought for a long time, however it is to important to be done without commonscence throughout the entire process, and that alone excludes the government.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:17:12 [Permalink]
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I agree that a fight for increased wellness care for everyone is good, and is a fight I fought for a long time, however it is to important to be done without commonscence throughout the entire process, and that alone excludes the government.
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Michael Moore has not stated that France or Canada or anywhere else is a utopia. He certainly let us know that Cuba, a poor country under attack by the U.S. for a century, does not have the equipment that the U.S. does. Even so, compare life expectancy rates and for that matter, compare just about any rate between Cuba and places like Washington, D.C.
I see no evidence that government is not better to deal with a lot of things than the so-called "free market" which itself does not exist without heavy government intervention. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:27:34 [Permalink]
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From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/5284646.stm
Patients who require a routine colonoscopy in Staffordshire - an internal examination of the large intestine - have to wait 665 days.
A spokesman from the hospital said the results were disappointing but they were working hard to rectify them. Currently, only four patients were waiting more than a year.
Worcestershire Acute Hospitals NHS Trust, which runs three hospitals in the county, said since September 2005, waiting times for MRI scans have been reduced.
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The movie shows that sometimes there are problems with waits on procedures that do not urgently need to be done. There is a triage system, in that the most urgent get taken care of first. That sometimes causes a problem in these countries. Of course, if you have no insurance, you don't get these tests at all in the U.S. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 07:06:51 [Permalink]
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France is having a hard time paying for the system.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3423159.stm
"The report says an ageing population and the high cost of advanced treatments will help push health spending past 9% of gross domestic product - one of the highest levels in the world."
9% of GDP is staggering.
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Yes, and the U.S. is having no problems paying for health care?
Did you google american health care as a percentage of GDP? Pick one:
This is not a socialist group:
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml [Updated 20240528 - Dave W.]
In 2005 (the latest year data are available), total national health expenditures rose 6.9 percent -- two times the rate of inflation (1). Total spending was $2 TRILLION in 2005, or $6,700 per person (1). Total health care spending represented 16 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP).
U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4 TRILLION in 2015, or 20 percent of GDP (2).
In 2006, employer health insurance premiums increased by 7.7 percent – two times the rate of inflation. The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $11,500. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,200 (3).
Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 13:24:10 [Permalink]
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Well, I don't know about American health system.
What I do know is that, in my understanding, the larger the country, the harder it will be to handle public health. In my country, it is dreadful. Nobody who can pay a health care plan, will go back to government-paid health care. But it does provide free medicine for the people who can't afford it, and will get the job done, even if not as well as it could be.
However - and this is a big one - Brazil is a poor country since it was born. The greatest problem is the lack of funds to pay for equipment, medicines, etc. Management is bad, too.
Though, ironically, one of the best hospitals (if not the best) in South American is public (and ours). |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 07/05/2007 13:24:36 |
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Sicko
