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Zebra
Skeptic Friend
USA
354 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2007 : 18:28:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Gorgo
Government does a lot of things right. Medicare is much more efficient than private insurers.
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Are you kidding about Medicare?
| Americans with Disabilities Suffer without Health Care and Incur Debt During Two-Year Wait for Medicare Coverage, Report Finds |
http://www.medicarerights.org/pressrelease2007_4frameset.html
Keep in mind the current insurance system is not without intense government regulation and therefore not a free market
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
... You stated that Medicare is much more efficient than private insurance. I gave just one report that shows Medicare not efficient at all. |
Jerome, I'm unclear on how you are using the term "efficient" in these comments.
How on earth does Medicare law setting eligibility criteria have anything to do with Medicare's efficiency or inefficiency? (Are you including the entire population, even those not covered by Medicare, in the measure of outcomes you're using to determine Medicare's efficiency?)
Even if you see a connection, remember that private insurance does not cover that population, except (1) as required by federal law under COBRA (under which the covered person typically pays more out of pocket than when he was employed), and (2) providing individual policies to those disabled individuals who can pay the highest rates in the industry, out of pocket (or "out of settlement"), for individual policies.
edited for clean up purposes |
I think, you know, freedom means freedom for everyone* -Dick Cheney
*some restrictions may apply |
| Edited by - Zebra on 07/06/2007 18:33:36 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 18:34:44 [Permalink]
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Zebra, I used efficient in the same context that Gorgo used it. I was responding to the comment you quoted in your post.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:13:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME...
Gorgo, both systems are needed for a society. One is heavily regulated and the other is not. This is a fair contrast and compare.
[. . .]
Health care system
Food production and distribution system
[. . .]
Yes, those two systems in the U.S.
[. . .]
GeeMack, to do as you ask you must first, please define heavily regulated and to what are we comparing this definition to? |
Jerome, you made the claim. It was simply stated. Regarding the health care system and the food production and distribution system in the United States, you claimed that one is heavily regulated and one is not. So are you claiming that the United States health care system is not heavily regulated, or are you claiming that the United States food production and distribution system is not heavily regulated?
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 19:55:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by GeeMack
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME...
Gorgo, both systems are needed for a society. One is heavily regulated and the other is not. This is a fair contrast and compare.
[. . .]
Health care system
Food production and distribution system
[. . .]
Yes, those two systems in the U.S.
[. . .]
GeeMack, to do as you ask you must first, please define heavily regulated and to what are we comparing this definition to? |
Jerome, you made the claim. It was simply stated. Regarding the health care system and the food production and distribution system in the United States, you claimed that one is heavily regulated and one is not. So are you claiming that the United States health care system is not heavily regulated, or are you claiming that the United States food production and distribution system is not heavily regulated?
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What are you doing? You keep asking the same questions. I was trying to be polite and answer, but at this point I will ask you to read my responses to your previous questions.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 03:13:17 [Permalink]
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I am skeptikal of the comaparsions of Medicare to private insurance. I would like to see the costs explained before accepting that the government can provide the service at the rate you forwarded.
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Good that you're skeptical. Look for your answers. I don't know what you mean about the "rate you forwarded" but make up your own mind.
I am waiting for something the government does on a comparable scale that it does right, along with a definition of "right."
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Cool. Not participating. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 04:41:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I am skeptikal of the comaparsions of Medicare to private insurance. I would like to see the costs explained before accepting that the government can provide the service at the rate you forwarded.
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Good that you're skeptical. Look for your answers. I don't know what you mean about the "rate you forwarded" but make up your own mind.
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YOu posted 2% compared to a much highr private insurance rate.
I am waiting for something the government does on a comparable scale that it does right, along with a definition of "right."
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Cool. Not participating.
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So we are in agreement then? My neighbor will be able to do the job justa as well, if not better, then the federal government. |
| Edited by - Original_Intent on 07/07/2007 05:15:37 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 05:08:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Ever wanted to know why anti-biotic resistent bacterias are a public health problem? Why there are so many non-healing surgical wounds that they need to open up clinics hat specialize in them? Because the government, through a combination of decreasing re-imbursemrnt leading to the lowest common denominator for employees has let the problem spread. It was economically more efficient for the govenment to let this problem get to the point where it effects far more people, then to allow the money to hire decent folk to control it.
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Can you spend a little more time explaining this? Where do you get this information?
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My information comes from first-hand experience, watching MRSA go from a nusciance in the hospitol and nursing homes to an epidemic inside the health-care system, and killing people with no link to the health care system.
It comes from watching health care "professionals" not handle this corectly.
It comes from watching a small percentage of the patients I handle with MRSA turn into a larger percentage (less then 5% to over 10%). It comes from taking otherwise healthy folks to wound-care clinics because their surgical scars were not healing.
It comes from watching VRE show up and spread rapidly.
But.....
Management of Multidrug-Resistant Organisms In Healthcare Settings,
2006
MRSA in Healthcare Settings
This all comes down inadequate and improper infction control procedures from simple negligence to downright (IMHO) criminal practices. "Enviormental Services" not servicing, health care professionals not following infection control policies to the Emergency Services not doing a complete cleaning of possibly contaminated equipment.
ALtohugh not entirely solvable by financial means, it is definitly made worse by under-payment and over-working health care professionals.
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 05:55:52 [Permalink]
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I am trying to remmeber the follow up questions/thoughts before the posts were lost.
The one that sticks out the most is Gorgo's belief that government control is the answer, to which I could not disagree more with.
The figure posted by Gorgo was 4% administrative costs for Medicare, while private insurance runs 10-20%. I have three problems with this figure.
1) The inherent waste of any money going to the government. Corporations have far better waste management systems in place then the government. The government can run a defecit, with someone getting fired on occassion (not re-elected). A corporation doing the same does not last, [tounge in cheek]unless you are an airline[/tounge in cheek].
2) Medicare does not need an army of lawyers and risk managers.
3) Profits. While profit is good, and the nation has to be very careful about where they stick their nose into it, profit for dividends/bonuses/salaries has to be limited in such a way as to not stifle advances.
Administrative costs I would like to see for a few. A system for limiting them could placed.(I would love to see the government refuse money to charities like the Cancer Society based on their administrative costs.)
The government COULD do a decent job with health care, but they could also do a good job with the FDA, or Energy policy, or immigration policy, or justice, or education.
Is it right that we spend more per capita to treat 85-90% of our population then France spends 9% to cover 99%? No. Is it right that a prisoner has no food, health, shelter, clothing insecurity while the lady down the street has all three because she was born poor?... No. Is it right that we spend a 1,000,000 dollars used to treat a gang-banger who gets shot in an armed robbery, but deny needed treatment to anyone. No.
The people seem to demand a lot from the government, but don't have the will to demand the correct use of the money they give them. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 07:16:52 [Permalink]
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I am for any system that allows both the doctor and patient to profit from their medical choices. What is the need for a third party; be it private insurance or government, to intercede in the decision process?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 07:27:58 [Permalink]
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| I am for any system that allows both the doctor and patient to profit from their medical choices. What is the need for a third party; be it private insurance or government, to intercede in the decision process? |
Ignorance truly is bliss, eh Jerome?
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 07:32:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by furshur
| I am for any system that allows both the doctor and patient to profit from their medical choices. What is the need for a third party; be it private insurance or government, to intercede in the decision process? |
Ignorance truly is bliss, eh Jerome?
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In what way?
Do you need a third party to make your health decisions for you?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 08:37:04 [Permalink]
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The one that sticks out the most is Gorgo's belief that government control is the answer, to which I could not disagree more with.
The figure posted by Gorgo was 4% administrative costs for Medicare, while private insurance runs 10-20%. I have three problems with this figure.
1) The inherent waste of any money going to the government. Corporations have far better waste management systems in place then the government. The government can run a defecit, with someone getting fired on occassion (not re-elected). A corporation doing the same does not last, [tounge in cheek]unless you are an airline[/tounge in cheek].
2) Medicare does not need an army of lawyers and risk managers.
3) Profits. While profit is good, and the nation has to be very careful about where they stick their nose into it, profit for dividends/bonuses/salaries has to be limited in such a way as to not stifle advances.
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Actually, I have no beliefs about the whole situation. I am willing to be swayed by evidence. If you get some, let me know.
And maybe there are better ways to deal with this. I've just started reading a book about how conservatives love the nanny state.
One point he makes there is how those that want to drive down the wages of poor and middle income people could also be working to drive down the incomes of people like doctors and lawyers. That would work to make health care more accessible to some.
The point is not that government can be wasteful, and that we need to make it accountable to the people. Hopefully, everyone knows that. Large corporations are accountable to no one anymore, and that's not a better system.
The point is that the present system serves to use the government and corporations to impoverish people, when we could be using it to our benefit, and could be making it more accountable to the people.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/10/2007 09:14:26 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 15:38:47 [Permalink]
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From this link:
| Private for-profit hospitals result in higher payments for care than private not-for-profit hospitals. Evidence strongly supports a policy of not-for-profit health care delivery at the hospital level. |
Swedish universal health care insurance system has a 2,2% overhead.
This pdf document in Swedish, page 182. (From State Office)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/10/2007 : 18:13:29 [Permalink]
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Doc, it looks like one of the authors of the study you linked is a politician.
In 1979, Guyatt and Dr. Fred Freedman co-founded the Medical Reform Group, a Canadian organization of physicians, medical students and others which supports universal public health care. Guyatt continues to serve as a member of the steering committee and leading spokesperson for this group.
Guyatt ran as the New Democratic Party (NDP) candidate in the 2004 and 2006 Canadian federal elections in the riding of Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, finishing in third place but exceeding 20% of the popular vote in each attempt. He previously ran for the NDP in the 2000 federal election in the former riding of Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, finishing in fourth place with approximately 8% of the vote. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Guyatt
Do you find it reasonable for a politician to present science dealing with his political positions?
Sorry, I could not read the Swedish text. What does the 2.2% overhead figure represent? What is defined as overhead?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2007 : 03:21:34 [Permalink]
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Yes. One of the 19 people writing the article seems to have run for a political party after the article was published. Does that invalidate the article itself? If the paper is peer reviewed, would the article pass it and get published if it had an obvious bias because of Guyatt?
| Do you find it reasonable for a politician to present science dealing with his political positions? |
Yes, if it can be shown that his political views and positions are derived from scientifically acquired knowledge. Contrary to American culture and history, not all non-American politicians are lying crooks. Not all politicians are in the conspiracy to take away your money and God-given freedom.
| Sorry, I could not read the Swedish text. What does the 2.2% overhead figure represent? What is defined as overhead? |
Administrative costs (including salaries), everything that is not used for paying medical bills, medicine, and similar.
Edited to fix spelling |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/11/2007 04:25:13 |
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Sicko
