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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2007 : 12:46:07 [Permalink]
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Doc, I am talking about the government subsidized and regulated insurance system. You did not address the problems with the study you presented, namely:
1. Corporate income taxes are not taken into account.
2. Competition is not accounted for. The largest study used even states lack of competition causes higher pricing.
3. The comparison is made between specific types of treatments to an entire health care system.
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I asked you about the GDP figure because I was interested as to its accuracy, and i thought you would be a good resource.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 13:13:45 [Permalink]
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| This is false. A free market promotes competition which lowers prices in most cases. We do not have a "free market" health insurance system. The system we have consists of a government subsidized and regulated system. |
We do not have a free market anything, and no reason to think that one will appear, or that that utopian free market will solve everything. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 13:50:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| This is false. A free market promotes competition which lowers prices in most cases. We do not have a "free market" health insurance system. The system we have consists of a government subsidized and regulated system. |
We do not have a free market anything, and no reason to think that one will appear, or that that utopian free market will solve everything.
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And we do not have a crime free society and never will; by you logic we should stop crime prevention.
Your statement was opposite of reality.
| the so-called "free market" drives up prices |
If one can not think in reality one will never find solutions in reality.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 14:56:15 [Permalink]
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And we do not have a crime free society and never will; by you logic we should stop crime prevention.
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That's a poor analogy. I didn't say that things would be perfect if we stopped trying to impoverish people with capitalism. I said that your utopian ideals will never be realized. They don't exist. That is reality.
Having said that, prison is mostly about locking up poor people and minorities, but that's another thread. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 15:03:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
And we do not have a crime free society and never will; by you logic we should stop crime prevention.
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That's a poor analogy. I didn't say that things would be perfect if we stopped trying to impoverish people with capitalism. I said that your utopian ideals will never be realized. They don't exist. That is reality.
Having said that, prison is mostly about locking up poor people and minorities, but that's another thread.
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I think you are caught up in ideology and catch phrases.
Starting from the beginning:
Would it be better if doctors and patients made the health care decisions?
Most would say yes.
As such, why should insurance and/or government be involved in that process? What is their need?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 15:06:20 [Permalink]
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Starting from the beginning:
Would it be better if doctors and patients made the health care decisions?
Most would say yes.
As such, why should insurance and/or government be involved in that process? What is their need?
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What does that have to do with anything? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/12/2007 : 15:10:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What does that have to do with anything?
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Is not health care what we are talking about?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 16:56:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Starting from the beginning:
Would it be better if doctors and patients made the health care decisions?
Most would say yes.
As such, why should insurance and/or government be involved in that process? What is their need?
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What does that have to do with anything?
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I find myself agreeing with Gorgo on technical arguments. The criticisms of his positions are not accurate nor against the substantive part of his post.
I don't agree with his premises.
I am officially scared. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 18:05:15 [Permalink]
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| My premise is, watch the movie. Do some research. Don't just sit around and say, "competition drives down prices." The system is not working. Senator Clinton made sure that nothing was done about the problem in the last 15 years or so, and will probably see that nothing is done in the next 15 years or so. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 20:07:45 [Permalink]
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Lets look at the cost of social medicine in America.
2002 data:
39,600,000 enrolled in Medicaid
http://tinyurl.com/2mrzot
$244,000,000,000 spent on Medicaid.
http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicaid/4-12-11MedicaidCost.htm
At this point we have a cost of $6060 per person.
2006 data:
41,000,000 enrolled in Medicaid
http://tinyurl.com/2s9lhd
$340,000,000,000 budget
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/hhs.html
Just four years later the cost per person has risen to $8293 per person. This is an almost 40% increase!
Social health care cost has risen above the per capita expenditures by almost 40%.
The facts show us that government provided health care is 40% more expensive than it was just 4 years ago and it is 40% more expensive than the average per capita.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 21:00:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
As such, why should insurance and/or government be involved in that process? What is their need? |
Most people can't or won't amortize their healthcare expenditures.
If most people were willing and able to put away $400 or $500 a month (adjust downwards for past inflation as needed) to cover future healthcare needs, the market for the good old-fashioned 80/20 health insurance would have been very small, and it never would have served anyone but the very wealthy.
What the insurance companies bank on is this: that the premiums plus deductibles from customers are equal to or greater than 80% of the actual costs of healthcare provided plus management costs plus profit. If the customers could or would have put away enough money every month to cover 100% of their own actual healthcare costs, they would have no need for the insurance at all.
But, we live in a country with an average negative savings rate. People don't even save enough to cover the cost of home appliances breaking, much less their own bodies. So, they get insurance, which forces them to amortize their healthcare spending over time. This is a good thing for the vast majority of people. People who, generally speaking, if they have money, will spend it. Paying an insurance premium takes that option away.
And with the demands from customers to reduce costs, some people figured out they could reduce costs further by excluding certain procedures, or limiting payments to doctors, and with a large customer base had the economic muscle to do so, and thus the HMO was born. An HMO customer is trading medical freedom for a lowered monthly amortization of healthcare costs. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong with this, so long as the HMO is honest and the customer is informed.
And yes, this is generally a good thing. HMOs even act as healthcare police, denying payment for lots of quack remedies (but unfortunately, recently, bowing to political pressure from customers and lobbyists to include some). For example, my HMO won't pay for antifungal drugs without seeing a positive test for fungus, a policy that vexed "yeast doctors" - those who consider almost any ailment to be due to (without evidence) "candida overgrowth."
If the government were to step in, there'd be quite a few options for doing total socialized medicine well. I don't think Medicaid would be one of the more promising models. But taxes would definitely be the method of forced amortization of costs.
I believe I've answered your question at the most-basic level. Without insurance or a government plan, we'd have people declaring bankruptcy after getting into no-fault auto accidents and not being able to afford the bill for multiple broken bones and/or a splenectomy. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 21:18:24 [Permalink]
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Dave, your argument basically comes down to people are either unwilling or unable to care for themselves. This is a base thought about people in general that we always disagree. The solution of government run health care will bring the care down to the lowest common denominator. I would be interested to know how many health care bankruptcies there were before government involvement and the increased cost associated with health care due to this involvement.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 05:39:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| This is false. A free market promotes competition which lowers prices in most cases. We do not have a "free market" health insurance system. The system we have consists of a government subsidized and regulated system. |
We do not have a free market anything, and no reason to think that one will appear, or that that utopian free market will solve everything.
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A point of agreement. Impossible to have a free-market on issues such as this. |
| Edited by - Original_Intent on 07/13/2007 05:43:24 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 05:45:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Gorgo
And we do not have a crime free society and never will; by you logic we should stop crime prevention.
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That's a poor analogy. I didn't say that things would be perfect if we stopped trying to impoverish people with capitalism. I said that your utopian ideals will never be realized. They don't exist. That is reality.
Having said that, prison is mostly about locking up poor people and minorities, but that's another thread.
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I think you are caught up in ideology and catch phrases.
Starting from the beginning:
Would it be better if doctors and patients made the health care decisions?
Most would say yes.
As such, why should insurance and/or government be involved in that process? What is their need?
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Even if you took insurance and the government out of it, some treatments are too damn expensive to be a burden to a single person whopse only crime has been is to be born on the wrong side of the tracks. |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 06:03:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Lets look at the cost of social medicine in America.
2002 data:
39,600,000 enrolled in Medicaid
http://tinyurl.com/2mrzot
$244,000,000,000 spent on Medicaid.
http://www.seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicaid/4-12-11MedicaidCost.htm
At this point we have a cost of $6060 per person.
2006 data:
41,000,000 enrolled in Medicaid
http://tinyurl.com/2s9lhd
$340,000,000,000 budget
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2006/hhs.html
Just four years later the cost per person has risen to $8293 per person. This is an almost 40% increase!
Social health care cost has risen above the per capita expenditures by almost 40%.
The facts show us that government provided health care is 40% more expensive than it was just 4 years ago and it is 40% more expensive than the average per capita.
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Health care costs rise because:
1) waste: Enough blame for the government here.
2) inadequate primary care leading to small problems (i.e. infection not treated immediatly turns into a septicemia (infection in the blood travelling around) that leads to, in a good case a few days in the hospitol, in a bad one long-term care.)
3) Increased technology that benefits few people at the start, but leads to widespread use. They can be relativelty cheap (the advent of treating shock - golden hour) to the extreemely expensive (gamma-knives).
4) the almost expotential use of life-sustaing thearapies (patients on vcentilators for 15 years before they pass on).
5) advances in treatment of diseasees. I have Chron's. 20 years ago, I would have been screwed, 10 years ago I was not in the best of shape. Treatment with high-doses of steroids will lead to future problems. No they have steroids at less then a quarter of that does that are specific, not systemic. I can take them longer, with fewer side-effects, and less worry about long-term risks. I was also lucky enough to have the insurance that would allow me to travel to the Cleveland Clinic for surgery. They were on the cutting edge of research. At the time, it was nothing to loose a foot of intestine per surgery. I lost 1 and 1/2 inches.
6) the number of people uninsured. Non-payment of medical service is like shoplifting. Everyone else pays for it.
Lets cut the cost of a complicated gunshot wound or a a case of ECMO treatment and newborn intensive care by a 1/20. Do you have $50,000 lying around? |
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Sicko
