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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2007 : 06:12:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, your argument basically comes down to people are either unwilling or unable to care for themselves. This is a base thought about people in general that we always disagree. The solution of government run health care will bring the care down to the lowest common denominator. I would be interested to know how many health care bankruptcies there were before government involvement and the increased cost associated with health care due to this involvement.
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Dave did not say "give it to the government." I don't think he even impled it.
I am very much with you on personal responsibility in most things. I would like to see a radical transformation in the way government does welfare, but the end result would still be government subsidies of needed(shelter/clothing/food/healthcare) things for people who needed them (housing in dorms, not apartments clothing, food, healthcare, not cash.), who need them because they are not able to work, or are not able to make ends meet while working. THis is all another subject though..... |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 07:25:15 [Permalink]
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The facts show us that government provided health care is 40% more expensive than it was just 4 years ago and it is 40% more expensive than the average per capita.
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Why is that? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 08:14:48 [Permalink]
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From the same report:
It is difficult to imagine how Medicaid could have better controlled per capita spending, especially given that
Medicaid purchased services in the same market as private
insurance plans and kept per enrollee spending growth to
levels below those seen in the private market. |
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 08:54:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Dave, your argument basically comes down to people are either unwilling or unable to care for themselves. |
In general, people don't do much long-term financial planning. In general, people don't like thinking about getting or being sick. The two trends combine in a bad way regarding long-term planning for healthcare. Besides that, putting away $400 a month for a minimum-wage worker means saving nearly 44% of his before-tax income.| This is a base thought about people in general that we always disagree. |
I understand that, and it's because you're an idealist and I'm a realist. I understand well what people are capable of, Jerome, I simply acknowledge that people more often than not fail to reach their full capacity. If everyone made optimal financial decisions all the time, there would be no victims of con-men, nor would there be any reason for insurance, social security, or Medicaid. The economies of Vegas and Atlantic City would collapse, and state lotteries would be non-existant. Invoking such a dream-world when discussing real problems like healthcare does nothing to further a workable solution.| The solution of government run health care will bring the care down to the lowest common denominator. |
Why? The government, of course, need not truly socialize medicine. Even a Federally-mandated and massive FSA would do a lot towards ensuring that people can pay for their healthcare.| I would be interested to know how many health care bankruptcies there were before government involvement and the increased cost associated with health care due to this involvement. |
Why would that interest you? It wasn't a part of my argument. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 10:32:15 [Permalink]
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| See FAIR's response to CNN's Sanjay Gupta's response to Sicko. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/13/2007 10:33:00 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2007 : 21:03:06 [Permalink]
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Why should one person pay for another persons health care?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 22:03:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Why should one person pay for another persons health care? |
Dunno. Why should you spend your time ensuring that your customers are informed shoppers? Why should you spend your timeon the SFN? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 22:22:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Why should one person pay for another persons health care? |
Dunno. Why should you spend your time ensuring that your customers are informed shoppers? Why should you spend your timeon the SFN?
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Because I make a free choice to do these things of which you speak. Social health care is not free choice; it is coerced payment. Theft!
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 22:36:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Because I make a free choice to do these things of which you speak. Social health care is not free choice; it is coerced payment. Theft! |
So, anyone who can't pay a hospital bill is also stealing from society. Would you prefer we go back to the days of debtors prisons?
Besides, a mandated FSA doesn't pay for anyone's healthcare but your own. And the money isn't taxed as income, reducing the tax bills for everyone. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 22:45:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
So, anyone who can't pay a hospital bill is also stealing from society. Would you prefer we go back to the days of debtors prisons?
Besides, a mandated FSA doesn't pay for anyone's healthcare but your own. And the money isn't taxed as income, reducing the tax bills for everyone.
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Anyone who can't pay for a food bill is also stealing.
Is your argument that it is OK to steal in certain situations?
A mandated FSA is a boon for financial institutions, as they get to make money from your money. Should you or I have to option to make money from our money as opposed to the government mandating that we give our money to the bank to make money from?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 23:04:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Anyone who can't pay for a food bill is also stealing.
Is your argument that it is OK to steal in certain situations? |
Quite the opposite. You are the one who is claiming that I should feel okay with people stealing from me in the name of freedom.| A mandated FSA is a boon for financial institutions, as they get to make money from your money. Should you or I have to option to make money from our money as opposed to the government mandating that we give our money to the bank to make money from? |
Your argument assumes that people will behave as your ideals dictate they should. You are in denial of reality.
Someone will profit from your money no matter what, Jerome. The only way they won't is if you stuff it into coffee cans and hide them away from everyone.
If the government were to manage the investments of the FSA money, it would pay the salaries of those doing the managing, plus some extra which could be added back into the FSA accounts. Yes, this results in a lower ROI than a private investment might (which would still be a boon to financial institutions), but at the same time ensures that the vast majority of the population could pay for their own medical care. Handing over money and getting something in return isn't theft.
If it were, then you are stealing from your own customers, Jerome. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 23:22:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Quite the opposite. You are the one who is claiming that I should feel okay with people stealing from me in the name of freedom. |
How am I claiming that?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 23:24:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Someone will profit from your money no matter what, Jerome. The only way they won't is if you stuff it into coffee cans and hide them away from everyone. |
No, if you put your money in a coffee can you will lose approximately 3% value yearly.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2007 : 23:28:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
If the government were to manage the investments of the FSA money, it would pay the salaries of those doing the managing, plus some extra which could be added back into the FSA accounts. Yes, this results in a lower ROI than a private investment might (which would still be a boon to financial institutions), but at the same time ensures that the vast majority of the population could pay for their own medical care. Handing over money and getting something in return isn't theft.
If it were, then you are stealing from your own customers, Jerome.
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Wrong again, just because I stole your money at the point of a gun and did it for your benefit (with a little for my effort) does not make this action anything less than theft.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Sicko
