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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 18:55:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Ricky
Should we be agnostic about the tooth fairy, Jerome?
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Also, there is a lack of debatable evidence for the existence of the tooth fairy.
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Make no mistake, the Tooth Fairy is alive and well at 1,000 fathoms.
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Thats great, thanks Filthy!  |
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2007 : 18:59:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
Do you have scientific confirmation that life happened by accident?
If it is in dispute that life could happen by accident, it is debatable that life happened by purpose.
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Do you have any evidence that "life happened by purpose"?
Besides, it is not in dispute that life has entirely natural origins, except by the religious.
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If life did not happen by accident it happened on purpose.
What group are you talking about that does not have questions about the origins of life?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 19:02:17 [Permalink]
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Halmooner, did you just state that evolution is not random but is caused by a random process?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 23:22:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halmooner, did you just state that evolution is not random but is caused by a random process?
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No. Read it again. And again, if you must.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 00:10:33 [Permalink]
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trollboy said:
If life did not happen by accident it happened on purpose.
What group are you talking about that does not have questions about the origins of life?
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False dichotomy.
Straw-man. I never said people didn't have questions, what I said was that it is not in dispute (by anyone with two brain cells to rub together) that life has a 100% natural origin, except by religious fools who have no concept of evidence or science.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 01:17:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Halmooner, did you just state that evolution is not random but is caused by a random process?
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Try these rough analogies (both are incomplete analogies, but I think a gist of truth comes through by considering them together):
1. Some people call Poker a "game of chance." I'd be willing to wager that Filthy would say something like, "Not if you're any damn good at it." There are (at least in an honest poker game) elements of chance or randomness: The shuffle, the luck of the draw. As with evolution, by the end of the day, the survivor at the poker table will have gathered up all the money. As with the anthropic principle, the winner is the one left to tell the tale, and I guarantee that he won't be bragging about his "luck."
2. Now, imagine playing the parlor game, "Twenty Questions." As Wiki explains the game... | One player is chosen to be the answerer. That person chooses a subject but does not reveal this to the others. All other players are questioners. They each take turns asking a question which can be answered with a simple "Yes" or "No." In variants of the game (see below), multiple state answers may be included such as the answer "Maybe." The answerer answers each question in turn. Sample questions could be: "Is it in this room?" or "Is it bigger than a breadbox?" Lying is not allowed, as it would ruin the game. If a questioner guesses the correct answer, that questioner wins and becomes the answerer for the next round. If 20 questions are asked without a correct guess, then the answerer has stumped the questioners and gets to be the answerer for another round. |
Evolution is somewhat like that, only played over billions of years, with mutational "answers" to the each of millions of life-and-death "questions." One difference is that a wrong answer (fatal mutation) means death. Only the winners in each round advance to the next question. The right answers accumulate in the genomes of the winners, giving them the startling appearance of "design." This accumulation of right answers ("right," as in allowing survival in a competitive and changing environment) is a process that is almost diametrically opposed to randomness, even though randomness plays a part, via mutation.
To me, this "accumulation of right answers" aspect of evolution is not only more believable than any theistic creation myth, it's also far more awe-inspiring.
And the process is not random!
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2007 : 02:15:15 [Permalink]
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Independence Day factiod: Most, by a huge margin, US flags are made in Chinese sweatshops factories that are anything but independent.
Edit: On a related note, some folks refuse to go quietly along with that, and they're getting pretty nasty about it. As if raising and waving millions of Stars and Stripes was not patriotic enough at Independence Day celebrations yesterday, the flags now have to be made in the US.
The state of Minnesota has taken the most draconian action, requiring all US flags sold in the state to be of American manufacture. Violations of the law, which comes into force at the end of the year, will be punished by a $1,000 (£495) fine or 90 days in jail.
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Whaddya say to that, Garrison?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 07/05/2007 03:11:16 |
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 05:44:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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So, in elections, do you vote for a stupid person, an insane person, or a condescending liar?
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Original_Intent
SFN Regular
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 05:49:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Independence Day factiod: Most, by a huge margin, US flags are made in Chinese sweatshops factories that are anything but independent.
Edit: On a related note, some folks refuse to go quietly along with that, and they're getting pretty nasty about it. As if raising and waving millions of Stars and Stripes was not patriotic enough at Independence Day celebrations yesterday, the flags now have to be made in the US.
The state of Minnesota has taken the most draconian action, requiring all US flags sold in the state to be of American manufacture. Violations of the law, which comes into force at the end of the year, will be punished by a $1,000 (£495) fine or 90 days in jail.
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Whaddya say to that, Garrison?
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Unwinnable under the WTO, any laws passed by either state or federal government are subject to terms set out by them, and this law is a barrier to free-trade. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 05:58:52 [Permalink]
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OI asked:
So, in elections, do you vote for a stupid person, an insane person, or a condescending liar?
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Yep.
The trick is to find the least stupid, least insane, and least dishonest one.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:18:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Original_Intent
Originally posted by filthy
Independence Day factiod: Most, by a huge margin, US flags are made in Chinese sweatshops factories that are anything but independent.
Edit: On a related note, some folks refuse to go quietly along with that, and they're getting pretty nasty about it. As if raising and waving millions of Stars and Stripes was not patriotic enough at Independence Day celebrations yesterday, the flags now have to be made in the US.
The state of Minnesota has taken the most draconian action, requiring all US flags sold in the state to be of American manufacture. Violations of the law, which comes into force at the end of the year, will be punished by a $1,000 (£495) fine or 90 days in jail.
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Whaddya say to that, Garrison?
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Unwinnable under the WTO, any laws passed by either state or federal government are subject to terms set out by them, and this law is a barrier to free-trade.
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Yeh. At the first business charged under that law, legal beagles will be all over it, and rightly so.
I doubt that it would get much beyond the first appeals court, if that far, and certainly not to the Soopremes (although if it should, who knows how that bunch might rule).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 06:55:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Do you have scientific confirmation that life happened by accident?
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Ok, let's give this a shot...
Jerome, you're asking the wrong question.
Why?
It's because that scientists do not propose that life happened by "accident". The general thrust of the science of abiogenesis is that given the right mix of chemicals and energy sources, the probability of chemical reactions resulting i life is rather high, especially if the chemical reactions are allowed to continue for a couple of hundred million years.
But that is a topic that belongs i the Creation/Evolution -folder and not politics.
| If it is in dispute that life could happen by accident, it is debatable that life happened by purpose. |
It is not in dispute that life could happen by "accident", if by "accident" you mean that there is probability factor involved. If you mean "accident" as in random chance, then your choice of word is bad. While single atoms react semi-randomly, in large systems random events cancel each other out and you are left with very predictable behaviour.
But that is a topic that belongs i the Creation/Evolution -folder and not politics. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 07:00:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Original_Intent
Originally posted by Dude
People who believe something to be true with no evidence are, typically, considered stupid and insane.
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So, in elections, do you vote for a stupid person, an insane person, or a condescending liar?
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With Bush, we got a "three-fer."
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 07:10:27 [Permalink]
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| Abiogenesis is as random as winning the lotto, after purchasing 1 billion tickets. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 09:07:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
trollboy said:
If life did not happen by accident it happened on purpose.
What group are you talking about that does not have questions about the origins of life?
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False dichotomy.
Straw-man. I never said people didn't have questions, what I said was that it is not in dispute (by anyone with two brain cells to rub together) that life has a 100% natural origin, except by religious fools who have no concept of evidence or science.
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What are the others options outside of accident or purpose?
You claimed this a false dichotomy as such there needs to be more choices, can you think of any?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Put Away the Flags
