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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 09:56:49 [Permalink]
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| This = species developing immunity |
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Meglamaniac21
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2007 : 15:26:57 [Permalink]
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Sorry, I'm new here and I realive you probably don't want my opinion. I also realize that this is from part of the conversation on page 9, which from the way people continue in circles, may be the same conversation held on page 12. I apologize for strying from the topic.
I noticed there was an arguement about what was fact and what was theory. I myself enjoy science and was horrified when the science portion of this debate didn't pull through as I had hoped. One user said that evolution was a fact and that the theory of evolution was in plave to proove that fact. They then used gravity as an example of what they meant, saying that gravity was a fact and the theories were there to help proove it.
The LAW of Gravity is a LAW. The THEORY of Evolution is a THEORY. As of this moment in time we cannot proove that evolution is a fact. True there is a lot of evidence that points to it (fossils, love how creationists try to get rid of those), but we don't yet have the amount of facts need to proove that it should be made a law and no scientists I have heard of are stupid enough to try to.
I apologive again if I am interupting a different branch of this conversation with this random comment on page 9. I just couldn't bring myself to read more.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 15:52:23 [Permalink]
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Meg said:
| As of this moment in time we cannot proove that evolution is a fact. |
You are completely and totally wrong.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 16:04:49 [Permalink]
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Welcome to the SFN!Originally posted by Meglamaniac21
They then used gravity as an example of what they meant, saying that gravity was a fact and the theories were there to help proove it. |
No, the theory explains it, not proves it.| The LAW of Gravity is a LAW. The THEORY of Evolution is a THEORY. |
Scientific terms explained. The theory of gravity we're currently working with is Einstein's General Relativity. And it tells us why in a relativistic scenario, Newton's law of gravity gives the wrong answer.| As of this moment in time we cannot proove that evolution is a fact. |
Absolutely we can, simply by observing mutations, selection and a shift in a population's allele frequency, and saying, "look, evolution happened."| True there is a lot of evidence that points to it (fossils, love how creationists try to get rid of those), but we don't yet have the amount of facts need to proove that it should be made a law and no scientists I have heard of are stupid enough to try to. |
Nobody who knows science thinks that a theory is somehow elevated to being a law by the weight of evidence.| I just couldn't bring myself to read more. |
Hope you read this. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 18:09:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
A brick will fall to the ground (fact) and gravity indeed does happen (fact). It's a theory based on facts. "Gravity exists" is a fact. "Gravity" is not a fact. You're still dumbing down. Am I a fact? I exist right? So "I" am a fact? Or is "I exist" the fact? Think about it.
To Dave, my point was that this is a regular occurance and thus mundane.
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For at least one participant in this discussion, nobody has yet been able to dumb things down sufficiently to make them understandable. I fear that to do so would require editing out all facts entirely. So you can see the constrants we struggle under.
Actually, evolution, being so pervasive, is a very "mundane" thing. Mundane means, according to Wikitionary:Adjective
mundane pronounced mun'deyn
1. worldly, profane, as opposed to heavenly
2. ordinary; not new
3. tedious; repetitive and boring
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 18:34:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Meg said:
| As of this moment in time we cannot proove that evolution is a fact. |
You are completely and totally wrong.
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Great explanation Dude. Seriously, what is the point of just saying that? Why go through the effort to even make the post?
The LAW of Gravity is a LAW. The THEORY of Evolution is a THEORY. As of this moment in time we cannot proove that evolution is a fact. True there is a lot of evidence that points to it (fossils, love how creationists try to get rid of those), but we don't yet have the amount of facts need to proove that it should be made a law and no scientists I have heard of are stupid enough to try to. |
A law was never a theory, and a theory can never become a law. A law is a description, typically a mathematical one, of a collection of facts. For example with gravity, Newton's inverse square law. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics as well. On the other hand, a theory encompasses many fundamentally different pieces of data and attempts to group them under a single explanation. Finally, facts are things we observe. Because we can observe evolution today, because we can literally sit inside or outside of a lab and watch it, evolution is a fact.
Law does not mean a theory which has been proven true. You can't prove a theory true, no matter how hard you try. You can give stronger evidence for it, but it's an asymptotic approach to truth.
Edited to add: Welcome to the SFN, Meglamaniac21. |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
| Edited by - Ricky on 07/17/2007 18:38:19 |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:02:06 [Permalink]
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Evolution is an attempted explanation of observable facts. Evolution in it self is not a fact.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
 Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:05:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Actually, evolution, being so pervasive, is a very "mundane" thing. |
This is were the humor is:
Creation, being so pervasive is a very mundane thing.
Pretend as you might you are making the same argument as the fundies.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:08:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Law does not mean a theory which has been proven true. You can't prove a theory true, no matter how hard you try. You can give stronger evidence for it, but it's an asymptotic approach to truth.
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So, you are saying that an unprovable theory is a fact?
How do you define fact?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:25:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
[warning]I said no more trolling, JEROME, and I meant it.
This is your first official warning.[/warning]
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What did I do, so as to prevent this offense from occurring again?
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:35:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What did I do, so as to prevent this offense from occurring again? |
It's quite obvious, Jerome, that instead of trying to engage in thought-provoking discussion, your intention is simply to provoke. As I said in my second pre-warning warning, there are ways to do what you've said you wanted to do without being a complete asshat about it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:35:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Actually, evolution, being so pervasive, is a very "mundane" thing. |
This is were the humor is:
Creation, being so pervasive is a very mundane thing.
Pretend as you might you are making the same argument as the fundies.
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Belief in creation, being so pervasive is a very mundane thing. When it come to creation Jerome belief is all you have. Bottom line, "Believing is easy." |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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JEROME DA GNOME
BANNED
2418 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 19:46:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What did I do, so as to prevent this offense from occurring again? |
It's quite obvious, Jerome, that instead of trying to engage in thought-provoking discussion, your intention is simply to provoke. As I said in my second pre-warning warning, there are ways to do what you've said you wanted to do without being a complete asshat about it.
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I have most assuredly attempted to engage in thought provoking talks. It seems as if any thoughts that are in disagreement are dispelled as trolling.
Look back to my very first OP, you will plainly see this in action.
I have been insulted and attacked on a consistent basis with little complaint.
If thought is not your game; so be it.
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What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way. - Bertrand Russell |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 20:43:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by JEROME DA GNOME
What did I do, so as to prevent this offense from occurring again? |
It's quite obvious, Jerome, that instead of trying to engage in thought-provoking discussion, your intention is simply to provoke. As I said in my second pre-warning warning, there are ways to do what you've said you wanted to do without being a complete asshat about it.
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I have most assuredly attempted to engage in thought provoking talks. It seems as if any thoughts that are in disagreement are dispelled as trolling.
Look back to my very first OP, you will plainly see this in action.
I have been insulted and attacked on a consistent basis with little complaint.
If thought is not your game; so be it.
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Ah, martyrdom.
So passe.
Jerome, you have been warned about trolling. The proper response is not arrogance.
I've mentioned that you have a modus operandi of making statements meant to provoke an emotional response. You've been called on this several times.
Oodles of others here have mentioned the same thing.
You've been warned. Straighten up and fly right.
And don't bother with another "poor pitiful me being picked on" bit. If that's all you've got, I'd invite you to try out a different forum for your martyrdom. It isn't welcome here. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Evolution caught in the act!
Official Warning