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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:21:14 [Permalink]
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Gary:
While science is looking outside into illusion and trying to quantify an explain that illusion the true nature of reality can only be experienced by going inwards. |
And yet, it is science that makes this conversation possible. Pretty good for an illusion.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:24:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Gary:
Also the dowsers could have been anyone - even people with a vested interest in making others believe dowsing was a load of rubbish - how can single or double blind tests deal with all of these possibilities? |
This is the torture I spoke of, those evil skeptics with a vested interest. I bet if any test result came out positive for dowsing, Gary would have no problem with that or the science behind it, even though it would be the same science.
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Well these things have to be taken into consideration - if we are too quick to assume we are testing genuine dowsers when in fact we aren't then we're in trouble right from the start.
If tests came out positive for dowsing, I wouldn't be taken in.
I would question the validity of the conclusions and ask myself who would benefit from a positive result.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:32:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
| How do you deal with the possibility that you are a malevolently evil snowmobile, Gary? |
I find that extremely funny for some reason. Mind if I pilfer it for my sig.? |
I'd be quite pleased if you did, especially since it doesn't look like Gary is going to deal with that particular problem.
He seems quite content to ignore me, probably because he is still swimming in circles and can't bring himself to admit it.
Oh, look! Another one!Originally posted by Gary 7.1
There are always higher states of consciousness and higher states of truth which will inevitably invalidate what we encountered in lower states of consciousness. |
But Gary, you've just said that your statement there will be invalidated. In some sufficiently high state of consciousness, it is false to say, "There are always higher states of consciousness and higher states of truth which will inevitably invalidate what we encountered in lower states of consciousness." Who is to say that we haven't already reached a high enough state? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:32:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
| There are always higher states of consciousness and higher states of truth which will inevitably invalidate what we encountered in lower states of consciousness. |
How exactly did you reach this conclusion?
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Only through experience. |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:41:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Gary:
Isn't skepticism based on the faith that we can tell what is true and what is false simply through the process of logical deduction and scientific observation? |
It's a set of tools to cut through our bias. It is as objective as any test can be. The tools of critical thinking and the scientific method cut both ways. Without a method for testing the truth value of a claim, all claims become equal. And if all claims are equal, no claim has usable value.
You call it a religion, but since our conclusions are all tentative, based on any new evidence that might come along, they are, unlike religion, subject to change.
Religion on the other hand is dogma and not subject to change.
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But true skeptics can never be convinced of anything - isn't that dogma? |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:46:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Gary:
While science is looking outside into illusion and trying to quantify an explain that illusion the true nature of reality can only be experienced by going inwards. |
And yet, it is science that makes this conversation possible. Pretty good for an illusion.
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We only get to understand it's an illusion AFTER we have achieved a higher state of consciousness. A dream or illusion will become our reality if we never wake up. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:47:59 [Permalink]
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Gary:
But true skeptics can never be convinced of anything - isn't that dogma? |
Our conclusions are tentative. But I am pretty convinced that the sun will come up tomorrow based on a lifetime of experience and good scientific evidence. Perhaps you are referring to philosophical skepticism. We are of the scientific skepticism variety...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:58:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
Originally posted by Kil
Gary:
Isn't skepticism based on the faith that we can tell what is true and what is false simply through the process of logical deduction and scientific observation? |
It's a set of tools to cut through our bias. It is as objective as any test can be. The tools of critical thinking and the scientific method cut both ways. Without a method for testing the truth value of a claim, all claims become equal. And if all claims are equal, no claim has usable value.
You call it a religion, but since our conclusions are all tentative, based on any new evidence that might come along, they are, unlike religion, subject to change.
Religion on the other hand is dogma and not subject to change.
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But true skeptics can never be convinced of anything - isn't that dogma?
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Of course we can.
We reserve the right to change our opinion if convincing evidences arise that we were wrong, but they are plenty of things each one of us is convinced of. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 11:59:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
We only get to understand it's an illusion AFTER we have achieved a higher state of consciousness. A dream or illusion will become our reality if we never wake up. |
Still swimming in circles. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 12:05:26 [Permalink]
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| We only get to understand it's an illusion AFTER we have achieved a higher state of consciousness. A dream or illusion will become our reality if we never wake up. |
Is it a reality that you are using a computer? Or have you accepted the illusion that you are using a computer?
You know, you're innocent when you dream. Why do you want us to lose our innocence? Where would you get the stuff that science has provided for you, all illusory of course, if we all lose our innocence?
I have to tell you, there are only so many beanstalks to go around…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gary 7.1
Skeptic Friend
51 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 12:21:13 [Permalink]
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We reserve the right to change our opinion if convincing evidences arise that we were wrong, but they are plenty of things each one of us is convinced of.
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What is it that makes us skeptical about one thing and totally convinced about something else?
It may be some form of programming or brain washing.
It may be everyday familiarity with one thing and lack of experience of something else.
If we change ourselves we can stop being skeptical about certain things and we can stop being convinced of other things and yet things in the outside world have not changed.
That's just choice and free will or lack thereof.
Convincing evidences can be deliberately manufactured with propaganda in an effort to control us.
It's all too tentative and unstable. Mind control has succeeded.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2008 : 12:26:14 [Permalink]
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Gary:
What is it that makes us skeptical about one thing and totally convinced about something else? |
What is it that makes talking to you like talking to a brick wall? Do you not read our replies? Did you miss the word "tentative" in all of this discussion?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 12:43:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gary 7.1
We reserve the right to change our opinion if convincing evidences arise that we were wrong, but they are plenty of things each one of us is convinced of.
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What is it that makes us skeptical about one thing and totally convinced about something else?
It may be some form of programming or brain washing.
It may be everyday familiarity with one thing and lack of experience of something else.
If we change ourselves we can stop being skeptical about certain things and we can stop being convinced of other things and yet things in the outside world have not changed.
That's just choice and free will or lack thereof.
Convincing evidences can be deliberately manufactured with propaganda in an effort to control us.
It's all too tentative and unstable. Mind control has succeeded.
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Of course it is tentative and unstable. That is the objective, to adapt our view each time new evidences come to light.
The alternative, pre-supposing an outcome and chalking everything that contradicts it to accident (the dowser just were not actual ones); conspiracy (propaganda) and misunderstanding (the skeptics are brain-washed and the scientists morons) is what YOU are doing.
Your reasoning is circular.
You have decided that the only worthwhile truths are brought in by supernatural means, so you 'meditate'; play with your pendulum and listen to the voices between your ears. And what do they tell you? That you were right, no matter the lack of evidences, and there is your only justification.
I guess it make you feel superior, but discarding whole panels of reality seems to me like quite a high price for a self-esteem boost! |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2008 : 12:59:21 [Permalink]
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| Please give me some examples of what double-blind tests are capable of proving and more importantly what things have they ever manged to prove? |
Haven't open any links, have you?
But true skeptics can never be convinced of anything - isn't that dogma? |
I see. A blanket statement implying a closed mind -- Of course we can convinced, but not by untestable and unsupported claptrap.
As I wrote in a post back in the dust somewhere, dowsers that are invariably successful are the ones that do their magik over the aquafiers. And these guys will tell the client how deep they must drill and the flow that they can expect from their well, and they usually hit the numbers very closely. Pretty amazing, huh? I wonder how they do that. 
No, I don't wonder at all! I know how it's done.
Thus far my friend, you have come up with little more than the sort of hyperbole that might convince the dreamy-eyed seeker after pie in the sky, but not anyone accustomed to do his/her own thinking. Dowsing tools are no more than toys to amuse the skeptic and amaze the mal-informed, including the modern devices that Randi has checked out, to his amusment.
Now, had you opened one of my links, you'd have seen that the Army did indeed use dowsers to search for caves & arms caches in 'Nam, but never a mine field. I have read that dowsers and even "remote viewers" were used in Iraq in a vain hope to validate the lies of Bush. I went looking for the article but can't find it, so I have no citation, but we all know where that one went, dowser or no.
Now, I've just read that the British Army used dowsers in the Faukland Island mine fields, but I don't know their success rate. I suspect that it was either pretty good or downright dismal because those dowsers, wanting to survive with legs intact, kept a close eye out for any sort of even minute terrain disturbances. I certainly would. Or were those guys using metal detectors and we're being bullshitted again? I dunno.
The long & short of it is that there is exactly zero supporting evidence in favor of dowsing beyond ancedote, wishful dreaming, and fraud -- some of the modern dowsing devices sell for high dollar and the suckers are eager buy them.
Dowsing is becoming ever more popular (I've just read that as well). But then spoon-bending enjoyed a certain popularity for quite a while....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2008 : 13:03:37 [Permalink]
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What is it that makes us skeptical about one thing and totally convinced about something else?
It may be some form of programming or brain washing.
It may be everyday familiarity with one thing and lack of experience of something else. |
Or -- are you sitting down for this? -- it just might be an insatiable curosity that drives us to study that which we don't yet understand.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Shirley Maclaine & Kevin Ryerson
