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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2007 : 13:24:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
My point was/is that science is not the sole keeper of truth. |
What you're saying is trivially true, because there is no way for us to ever know the Truth-with-a-capital-T. Philosophers came to terms with this centuries ago, but you're just complaining about it now? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 13:32:57 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| This is idiotically wrong, bill. Truth is not decided by what "scientists" agree with, but by what agrees with reality. |
My point exactly.
| No, mythology doesn't get to label itself science, that is true. |
We agree again
| I already corrected you on this. Science holds the exclusive method for uncovering truth. |
I never said anything about uncovering truth. I said that not everything professed under the banner of "science" is truth. Fility agreed with me. And I also said that materialists/atheists/humanists do not hold exclusivity on "science" as they think they do.
| Is it perfect? Admittedly not. |
I agree.
| But it's better than nothing. |
Sometimes.
| It's better than accepting answers with no basis in fact. |
But it not better then passing along a, known, or unknown, falsehood.
| That's called fiction, bill, and it is the opposite of "truth." |
I would agree.
| Except what they are defending is almost never 100% wrong. We're talking about minor corrections. Small tweaks. Not the sort of monumental flaws which would allow an ignoramus like yourself to dismiss whole fields of science as flat out "wrong." |
I believe at one time they thought smoking cigarettes was a good thing for your respiratory system. I have a picture in my garage from the old days when the Tour De France riders were all puffing on a smoke after a day of racing. They even had commercials where 3 out of 4 doctors recommended brand X. I am sure they laughed at the ignoramus of those times who dared to question the "science" of the day and suggested that cigs could kill. Yes, eventually they reversed course and deemed ciggs bad, but not until after decades of smokers were feed bad science and paid for this inaccuracy with their lives. This was hardly a small tweak.
| No. It's impossible to move backward. Science works like a ratchet. Each new finding is incorporated into previous findings so that progress is steadily made in a single direction. |
Unless the "theory" was flawed to begin with.
| The thing you hope for, that all of the progress made on uncovering the fact of evolution over the last century and a half will magically turn out to be "wrong" and totally reverse itself, is an impossibility. It will never happen. |
I agree. No matter what is put in front of their face macro evolution will be defended until last breath. The alternative is unacceptable in their mind.
| Boy, you sure are trying to get a hell of a lot of mileage out of that one phrase, aren't you Billy Boy? |
How so Herb?
| Maybe you should actually try to comprehend what people are trying to hammer into your thick skull instead of trying to twist other people's word into mischaracterizations of their positions, mm-kay? |
I said that "science gets it wrong most of the time." Fility chimed in and said that "science gets it wrong most of the time." I fail to see your correlation, Ignoramus. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 07/23/2007 13:37:08 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 13:47:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by H. Humbert
The thing you hope for, that all of the progress made on uncovering the fact of evolution over the last century and a half will magically turn out to be "wrong" and totally reverse itself, is an impossibility. It will never happen. |
I agree. No matter what is put in front of their face macro evolution will be defended until last breath. The alternative is unacceptable in their mind. |
Pure fundy fantasy on your part, Bill. Nothing more. Just another liar for Jesus who can't face reality. You truly are pitiful.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 14:09:47 [Permalink]
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| Y'know, what amuses me most about people who yammer against science in general, is how readily they're up to use its benefits - whether by using a computer, driving a car or taking antibiotics... |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 07/23/2007 : 16:56:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by H. Humbert |
| Maybe you should actually try to comprehend what people are trying to hammer into your thick skull instead of trying to twist other people's word into mischaracterizations of their positions, mm-kay? |
I said that "science gets it wrong most of the time." Fility chimed in and said that "science gets it wrong most of the time." I fail to see your correlation, Ignoramus.
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What filthy actually said:
Originally posted by filthy
Scientists get it wrong all the time. Indeed, many if not most experiments are failures and many observations produce incorrect conclusions. The beauty of this is that scientists correct themselves, or are corrected by other scientists.
And that is the how and why of science's success.
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Now, it doesn't really take much to understand what filthy meant by this. He is talking about testing hunches or hypotheses and peer review, not getting theories wrong. (While that does happen, it is very rare.) Mostly theories get expanded on, like Newtonian physics to Einstein's theory of general relativity. Newtonian physics is still very useful but Einstein was able to explain a lot more about how the universe works.
Also, Bill, you didn't even get the part of the quote you mined correct. Frankly, I would call that a lie. But then, what would creationists have to ague with if not a good quote taken out of context. Liars for Christ, you guys are…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 17:31:45 [Permalink]
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Bill Scott:
I agree. No matter what is put in front of their face macro evolution will be defended until last breath. The alternative is unacceptable in their mind. |
So, your saying creationists have come up with some actual science of their own that is worthy of consideration?
Name it.
By the way, an alternative theory is not unacceptable. If a better explanation for the diversity of life on our planet comes along, evolution will be dropped. Of course, whatever theory it is must reside in the realm of the falsifiable. What have you got Bill?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:25:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
No matter what is put in front of their face macro evolution will be defended until last breath. The alternative is unacceptable in their mind. |
As if there were only one alternative. There are an infinite number of possible explanations for high-level phenotypic change, Bill. Heck, Darwin's gradualistic ideas have already been dropped because Punctuated Equillibria better fits the data and the known mechanisms both, at all levels. But gradualism fit the data better than "Goddidit."
What's your definition of "macroevolution," Bill? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 18:26:59 [Permalink]
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| He is talking about testing hunches or hypotheses and peer review, not getting theories wrong. |
When you first create a knife, it is dull. In order to become useful, it needs to sharpened.
But, would one expect a monkey to appreciate the taste of ginger? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Ghost_Skeptic
SFN Regular
Canada
510 Posts |
Posted - 07/23/2007 : 22:33:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Bill scott
No matter what is put in front of their face macro evolution will be defended until last breath. The alternative is unacceptable in their mind. |
As if there were only one alternative. There are an infinite number of possible explanations for high-level phenotypic change, Bill. Heck, Darwin's gradualistic ideas have already been dropped because Punctuated Equillibria better fits the data and the known mechanisms both, at all levels. But gradualism fit the data better than "Goddidit."
What's your definition of "macroevolution," Bill?
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Probably a dog giving birth to cat or some similar creationist distortion/misconception
Bill - what has been "put in front of their face" other than the mythology of some nomadic bronze age sheep herders.
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"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. / You can send a kid to college but you can't make him think." - B.B. King
History is made by stupid people - The Arrogant Worms
"The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism." - William Osler
"Religion is the natural home of the psychopath" - Pat Condell
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" - Thomas Jefferson |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 02:55:30 [Permalink]
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I wonder how much impression you are making on bill scott.
An analysis of his posts clearly shows the presence of Morton's Demon.
I also conclude that he suffers from No-Grey-Area Syndrome.
No-Grey-Area Syndrome is an affliction that practically all religious fanatics suffer from: Everything in the world is either Black or White, nothing in between, no grey nuances. This binary view of the world constantly makes the afflicted put forth False Dilemmas as he describes the reality he perceives.
Since Scientific theories are only approximated descriptions of reality, they are not 100% truth-with-capital-T, but only mostly true. Since this is a grey area, the person (like bill scott) is blind to the usefulness of it being 'mostly true' and can therefore dismiss it as wrong.
A person suffering from No-Grey-Area Syndrome will also have an innate inability to spot his own hypocrisy or even recognise it if pointed out to him, as he will accept scientific theories as true when convenient and not conflicting with his religious views. And example of this is Newton's Laws on motion. While we now know that Newton's laws were wrong in the strictest sense, and Einstein's theory of relativity complements it and makes it more complete, the person suffering from NGA will hypocritically accept Newton's laws without question.
How does one cure a person from NGA Syndrome?
Well, as far as I know, there is no cure. There is a good chance that an afflicted person will self-heal over time, if kept in a skeptical environment, or at least out of areas with high concentration of religious fanaticism. The latter being the most important condition for recovery. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 08:34:51 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Ricky |
| If you got a better way, I'm all ears. |
I think I misspoke here. My point was that all that is labeled "science" is not truth by default.
| So because science isn't right all the time, you'd rather go with something worse than science. Seems rather illogical, no? |
What I said was:
1. Not all that is labeled science is truth.
2. materialist/atheist/humanist do not hold exclusivity on science.
| So you rather have us not know anything at all then potentially know something which isn't true? |
In some cases, yes. I bet the smokers of 50 years ago would have rather been told nothing then fed the lie that smokes are good for them and have their doctor recommend brand X for their pleasure and well being.
This will be repeated down the road. A respected science of today will be exposed as flawed and will look very silly in light of what is known today, just as smokes were once pushed as a healthy habit in days gone by.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 08:39:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
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| Pure fundy fantasy on your part, Bill. Nothing more. |
Your display proves my point for me.
| Just another liar for Jesus who can't face reality. |
Just another liar for darwin who can't face his reality
You don't even know me and at least I am not a sloth, chubby.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 08:42:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Siberia
Y'know, what amuses me most about people who yammer against science in general, is how readily they're up to use its benefits - whether by using a computer, driving a car or taking antibiotics...
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You know what amuses me? The fact that the materialist and atheist have diluted themselves to the point where they actually believe that creationists cannot be scientists and scientist can not be creationists. Boy, they sure don't know their history.
http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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www.notjustatheory.com
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