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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2007 : 15:30:15 [Permalink]
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| Rather than feeling personally chastised, |
I suppose I should be complex here and call you a dimwit for not comprehending, but no one seems to get the joke.
I am not chastising anyone. I said that very clearly. Why you feel the need to be chastised, I do not understand. In fact, that's my point. You're okay. You don't need to do that. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 20:14:34 [Permalink]
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Cheeses Creased, people, I go away for just a few hours to attend a science fiction DVD party (TOTALLY LAME!!!) and I come back and don't know what the fuck has taken place in my absence.
Pregnant goldfish? Ai de mi!
Perhaps this, from Gorgo, partially explains my confusion:
| I'm removing what I wrote here. |
Removing what!?
I just hung out with a bunch of socially inept individual who looked like they came right out of the movie "Revenge of the Nerds', so my sense of humor has been seriously rehabilitated.
| Having said that, I think Marf, among others has taken what I've written the wrong way. Again, I said clearly that this thread is not about chastising anyone. |
I don't think I took anything the wrong way. I think you wrote it the wrong way, and I took it as any average person would take it. Look, man, you can't say the crap you've said and then top it off with not that I'm chastising anyone. You have directly said that I called Jerome names to build myself up by knocking someone else down. You referred to my insult as a "lie", which makes me a liar. You said that I was operating under a delusion that I could change reality with my emotions. C'mon, man, that's really insulting shit.
Look, I really don't mind anymore. It's been a long, bizarro night for me, and I know you didn't mean anything hurtful by anything you said. I appreciate you expressing yourself on this forum. It's all good. Just stop with the assumptions about peoples motivations, seriously, man, ok? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/26/2007 20:15:46 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 20:28:15 [Permalink]
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| I suppose I should be complex here and call you a dimwit for not comprehending, but no one seems to get the joke. |
You bastard, you didn't even wait for me to show up to see if I'd get the joke before you retracted. But just to show you I care: Mu ha ha ha ha! Dimwit - hilarious! ROTFL!
I'm not even being sarcastic. But I am confused. Given what your side of this argument is, for you to use insults it would have to actually upset people, and then that would be ironic since the people who defended insults got upset about being insulted themselves. Right? But I'm not upset, I'm jealous. I wanna be called a name as an amusing gesture! If you get around to that, make it something really really juicy, like cuntfuck or fuckle-bitch.
Edited to add: It must include the f-bomb. Without the f-bomb it won't be funny.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/26/2007 20:29:32 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 23:47:32 [Permalink]
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I appreciate your last remarks, Marf. If you're interested at all, re-read what I said about appreciating you all. I didn't say that you had to get somewhere, I said that I was working on something, and I'm not all the way there yet. It seems that you're reading things that aren't there in other areas as well, and then telling me that I've written something wrong. I probably did in some areas, but you've clearly read something that isn't there in this instance.
Does saying "where you are" imply that I think there is such a thing as growth in a human? Sure. It's relative, but I think most of us strive to learn what we want to learn. Did I say I was somewhere higher than anyone else? No. I was talking about your reference to Jerome as inferior. (edited later to say that insomnia does not mean that one is fully awake. I did not mean that last remark about Jerome. What I meant is to say that I'm attempting to make the remarks in this thread different from my remarks in other threads.) I'm trying to learn that I am also on my own path to growth, and we're not all where we want to be, and it's all relative anyway. There is no test at the end.
I guess the rest of what you're writing means that you don't apologize to Dave for what you wrote. You have a justification for it, and it's not really an insult, it's a literary tool. Then tell Dave that he's a fucking moron. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/27/2007 02:32:22 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2007 : 23:50:34 [Permalink]
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| Having said that, I think Marf, among others has taken what I've written the wrong way. Again, I said clearly that this thread is not about chastising anyone. |
I don't think I took anything the wrong way. I think you wrote it the wrong way, and I took it as any average person would take it. Look, man, you can't say the crap you've said and then top it off with not that I'm chastising anyone. You have directly said that I called Jerome names to build myself up by knocking someone else down. You referred to my insult as a "lie", which makes me a liar. You said that I was operating under a delusion that I could change reality with my emotions. C'mon, man, that's really insulting shit.
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And I'm the one that's super sensitive. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 00:21:40 [Permalink]
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I think it's interesting that it's okay to talk about my motivations, when I've clearly stated what my motivations are, and you can't accept them, but it's not okay for me to talk about your motivivations.
I think it's interesting that all I've said is there is nothing wrong with what you're doing except, that others who are critical of skeptics, might use some of these things against us, when all WE (I have included myself) need to do is let the facts stand as they are. We don't need to add insults to build ourselves up and tear others down.
I also find it interesting that it's wrong for me to say that you are worthy of self-respect, and that while others' ideas may not be worthy of respect, we need to respect others in order to respect ourselves.
I think it's interesting that I've noted that, while I have my own problem doing that, that doesn't mean that I haven't learned from that, and that I can't share what I've learned with others, and that's something that you find insulting, and you chastise and are "embarrassed" about that, yet I'm the one that's sensitive. I haven't said I'm terribly upset about any of this. I haven't said that I'm "embarrassed" about your behavior or mine.
I've made observations, which may be right or wrong. I may have stated it poorly in some cases, but I've also seen that you read things into it that aren't there. That's okay. That's part of communicating, but it's interesting that it's always one sided.
No one says, "it may be me that's reading something wrong." I'm told that "everyone" would read it that way, which as far as I remember, is a fallacy, even if it were true. If everyone does something wrong, does that make you right? Are you incapable of reading something wrong? Are we not a small part of a very large crowd that believes a lot of crazy crap? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/27/2007 00:29:32 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 00:31:16 [Permalink]
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| Oh, and yes, I've worked in factories for years, so I know how to correctly call someone a cock-faced bitch. That is, if I were to do such a thing, which I never would. Even in an attempt to be funny. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 00:36:35 [Permalink]
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| I guess the rest of what you're writing means that you don't apologize to Dave for what you wrote. You have a justification for it, and it's not really an insult, it's a literary tool. Then tell Dave that he's a fucking moron. |
Insults are literary tools. Having a reason isn't the same as having a justification. I did wrong the SFN, which is why I apologized to Dave when he, acting as an administrator, told me to stop. However, the “wrong” I committed was extremely tiny and easy to smooth over with an apology and ceasing the behavior after slightly crossing the line, which is why I went ahead and did it anyway.
| I think it's interesting that it's okay to talk about my motivations, when I've clearly stated what my motivations are, and you can't accept them, but it's not okay for me to talk about your motivivations. |
I have criticized things you've said. I have not made assumptions about your motivations. In fact, I think your motivations are genuinely benevolent. That would be why I wrote: “I know you didn't mean anything hurtful by anything you said.” But your execution sucks, and I do you a disservice if I don't respond in kind when you say things in an offensive manner.
| We don't need to add insults to build ourselves up and tear others down. |
Yes, yes, and I already told you that I'm not doing that. But you don't believe, so whatever.
| I also find it interesting that it's wrong for me to say that you are worthy of self-respect |
Oh spare me. I and nobody else complained about you saying that.
Gorgo, what I find interesting is that you've had several people on SFN over a long period of time get upset and offended by your sharing of the things you've learned, and so I'd think that after you pissed off enough people you'd stop and think – Gee, maybe my approach to this is failing. I know what you are trying to do. I know you mean to be all nice and shit. But I don't care when the actual words on the screen are insulting by any common standards. And when you couch it next to nice statements insisting that you don't mean to offend, you just come off as condescending.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 00:38:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I also find it interesting that it's wrong for me to say that you are worthy of self-respect, and that while others' ideas may not be worthy of respect, we need to respect others in order to respect ourselves.
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Maybe it would help if you stated why we need to respect others in order to respect ourselves. I don't think that's self-evidently true.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 02:21:33 [Permalink]
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I know what you are trying to do. I know you mean to be all nice and shit.
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Reality has nothing to do with being nice. I'm not being nice, I'm trying to figure out what reality is. If you care about life, and you don't have to, but if you do, then you care about reality.
What people decide to be pissed off about is none of my business. It has nothing to do with me. People are not angry because of what happens, they are angry because of the way they perceive themselves. Myself included. That doesn't give one license to work to harm others for many reasons that I won't go into. I'm not angry at you for insulting Jerome because Jerome might be offended. What Jerome decides to be offended about has nothing to do with anything. The fact that you decide to be pissed off is your business, and is irrelevant to reality. Your emotions do not change reality, and your frustration with your inability to communicate with Jerome does not change reality no matter how hard you try.
(edited to say, I mean I'm not trying to be superficially nice. Hopefully, I'm nice and civil and even friendly, but not for some superficial kind of niceness' sake) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/27/2007 03:42:10 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 02:23:12 [Permalink]
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| Maybe it would help if you stated why we need to respect others in order to respect ourselves. I don't think that's self-evidently true. |
You evidently have some idea why it's not self-evidently true, and it may be helpful if you evidence that non-evidential evidentness.
(Edited to say that that I know that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, but you seemed to have some idea of what you want to say here. To really take this on would end up in a war of semantics that I don't really want to get into. Because we want some amount of respect just for being human, we need to show that respect for others if we ever hope to get it in those tough spots where we really need it for basic survival.) |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 07/27/2007 03:45:24 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 02:26:29 [Permalink]
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However, the “wrong” I committed was extremely tiny and easy to smooth over with an apology and ceasing the behavior after slightly crossing the line, which is why I went ahead and did it anyway.
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Actually, the wrong you committed in Dave's eyes was small, because he happens to agree with a lot of your views, as he says.
Disrespecting yourself may be a literary tool, but it's still disrespecting yourself. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 02:28:32 [Permalink]
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Jerome Da Gnome popped up over at Skepticality.
We'll see if he fares better there. Skepticality has a Reputation system where members can vote good or bad on each post, and that vote will influence reputation. Perhaps He will take impression by it. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 02:42:34 [Permalink]
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I'll say it again. If you need to do more than let your argument speak for yourself, then you either don't think much of yourself or you don't think much of your argument. The rest just weighs US down when WE do that. I'm using the word 'you' here meaning 'a person or persons.'
It's fine if you tell me about your frustration if it interferes with your argument, but I don't really care about your frustration otherwise, except as a matter of humans telling one another that they're human. It's your battle, not mine. If you're telling me as a matter of small talk, that's fine. Just don't blame anyone else for it. Your frustration has nothing to do with Jerome or me.
If I'm saying something poorly, fine. Then say what you specifically have a problem with. But read what I wrote. Don't tell me things I didn't say.
And, if you're going to moderate, moderate the same for everyone, or admit that you don't really care about civility, you only care about civility when it comes to defending what you evidently view as a very weak position. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2007 : 03:54:11 [Permalink]
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| Gee, maybe my approach to this is failing. |
I do try to learn, but when I see that people talk to me about the ghosts that they see, rather than what I've presented, then I realize that what I need to do is point out that what these people are seeing are ghosts.
George Bush is a criminal. Because some people don't like me saying that doesn't mean that I shouldn't continue to say it. People are being murdered because of it. Should I phrase it some other way to make it more palatable to people who hate reality so much they read Ann Coulter and David Horowitz, or is it sometimes important to do that which is futile, because there is the possibility that someone somewhere might pay attention at some point, or in fact, if I keep trying I might learn a better way. So, yes, keep criticizing, but criticize what's there. Please don't criticize the ghosts, and don't show me how much you hate yourself by going out of your way to insult me. I'm not going to believe you. I started to believe it about Dude, but I see that I was probably mistaken. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Troll?
