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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2007 : 15:01:39
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Dude had written in another thread: Robb, anyone who tells you that evolution is false, or there is no evidence for it, or any of the many things they say to discredit the ToE... is deliberately lying and being intentionally deceptive.
All that misinformation? Generated by intentional liars. |
I think there is some truth in this, but that it also oversimplifies the case. We all, including myself, tend to oversimplify our cases when making points. I think Dude's statement brings up an opportunity to discuss thoughts about the underlying motivations of fundies who bear false witness against science.
Human motivation is often the most of difficult things to discern, but regardless of motivation, if the end result is the spreading of falsehoods, it isn't all that wrong of Dude to have called all people who disseminate untruths “liars.”
However, calling people liars may in some cases be counterproductive, especially when such persons do not perceive themselves as liars.
For convenience, I'll show positions in a sort of spectrum. (Actual Creationists may fall anywhere on the spectrum, often between these discrete points. They may also jump around a bit over time.) With very little adaptation, I think the following list is also applicable to other types of woo-woo:
Simple.
1. The Simple Ignoramus: This fundy spreads nonsense because he sincerely believes it, and, though open minded to truth, he simply hasn't seen contradictory evidence, or if he's seen it, he hasn't understood it.
Willful.
2. The Willful Ignoramus: This guy, on faith, believes that the Bible is the ultimate truth. “For the Bible tells me so.” He ignores, and/or attacks, anything he sees as contradictory to his source of truth. He's probably seen, and to some degree may understand, evidence contradicting his position, but he doesn't trust its accuracy, since he knows it comes from non-Biblical, secular thinking.
Pious.
3. The Pious Liar: This guy may have a fair understanding of the position of science, and knows that the facts of nature contradict the Bible. But he's decided that he'd rather side with his own religious crowd. He is in a state of Orwellian “doublethink,” where he has to know the truth in order to keep his lies straight. When he attacks science, he knows that he's telling lies, but thinks it's for a greater good.
Sly.
4. The Sly Manipulator: This guy is lying, knows it, and loves it. His purpose isn't “greater” in any manner: It's personal. He is only paying lip-service to the beliefs he pretends to espouse. He's lying for personal gain, or out of a desire to dominate others. He gets a kick out of fooling people.
[Edited for grammar, minor changes, formatting, typos and to add photos.]
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/02/2007 05:14:43
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 15:46:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Dude had written in another thread: Robb, anyone who tells you that evolution is false, or there is no evidence for it, or any of the many things they say to discredit the ToE... is deliberately lying and being intentionally deceptive.
All that misinformation? Generated by intentional liars. |
I think there is some truth in this, but that it also oversimplifies the case. We all, including myself, tend to oversimplify our cases when making points. I think Dude's statement brings up an opportunity to discuss thoughts about the underlying motivations of fundies who bear false witness against science.
Human motivation is often the most of difficult things to discern, but regardless of motivation, if the end result is the spreading of falsehoods, it isn't all that wrong of Dude to have called all people who disseminate untruths “liars.”
However, calling people liars may in some cases be counterproductive, especially when such persons do not perceive themselves as liars.
For convenience, I'll show positions in a sort of spectrum. (Actual Creationists may fall anywhere on the spectrum, often between these discrete points. They may also jump around a bit over time.) With very little adaptation, I think the following list is also applicable to other types of woo-woo:
1. The Simple Ignoramus: This fundy spreads nonsense because he sincerely believes it, and, though open minded to truth, he simply hasn't seen contradictory evidence, or if he's seen it, he hasn't understood it.
2. The Willful Ignoramus: This guy, on faith, believes that the Bible is the ultimate truth. “For the Bible tells me so.” He ignores, and/or attacks, anything he sees as contradictory to his source of truth. He's probably seen, and to some degree may understand, evidence contradicting his position, but he doesn't trust its accuracy, since he knows it comes from non-Biblical, secular thinking.
3. The Pious Liar: This guy may have a fair understanding of the position of science, and knows that the facts of nature contradict the Bible. But he's decided that he'd rather side with his own religious crowd. He is in a state of Orwellian “doublethink,” where he has to know the truth in order to keep his lies straight. When he attacks science, he knows that he's telling lies, but thinks it's for a greater good.
4. The Sly Manipulator: This guy is lying, knows it, and loves it. His purpose isn't “greater” in any manner: It's personal. He is only paying lip-service to the beliefs he pretends to espouse. He's lying for personal gain, or out of a desire to dominate others. He gets a kick out of fooling others.
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Of course. There is no possibility that someone came to a different conclusion than you because evolution is a fact, no doubt we all came from the same simple life form. If they do disagree they are either some kind of ignoramous, pius or a willful liar. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 16:07:33 [Permalink]
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Yes, Robb, I do admit that I began the OP above from the assumption that the Earth and the universe are very old, that evolution is demonstrated conclusively by nature itself, and that the Creationist myth is nonsense and false. And I want to point out that was limiting myself to the consideration of literal Biblical Creationism, not the more science-friendly, allegorical kind.
My point was that the dissemination of untruths is not always a simple matter of lying, but that there is a spectrum of motivations, ranging from pure, innocent ignorance, to pure, cynical deception. If you know of Creationists of the "Biblical inerrant" sort who do not fit somewhere on this spectrum, please correct me.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/01/2007 16:34:45 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 16:30:49 [Permalink]
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I have to admit that I agree with Half's scale, though I think that first picture - although quite funny - is a bit mean. Most people in the modern world who reject evolution do not look like Zeke and Joe Bob (or whoever those two guys are) in the first picture; they look like regular everyday people walking the street. And their ignorance often stems from the simple fact that evolution is not clearly taught in schools, most people do not thoroughly study evolution in college, if they even go to college, and evolution is a socially controversial theory in mainstream Western culture.
I had a conversation with my cousin Kris once, where I told him about a pamphlet a Creationist had handed to me that argued against evolution using the banana. Many of you here have probably heard this argument before: a banana is easily held in the human hand, and easily peels from a built-in tab. Obviously a banana was a food created for human consumption, therefore the world was designed with humans in mind. I then told my cousin how silly this was since humans bred our common grocery store banana from much worse-tasting and less convenient wild fruits. To my surprise, my cousin (who wasn't even a creationist) exclaimed "Really!? Why don't they teach that in school? That is so clearly an argument for evolution." Why indeed.
I think the vast majority of creationists fit into the first category. Many have never encountered the info on evolution in a manner that made sense to them. Some don't trust the messengers of such information, such as Australian Aborigines who have good reason not to trust Westerners given their recent horrible history with them. I can't say I fault those who fit in the first category. They are just going with their common sense as their culture presents it, and it is the job of educators and educational institutions to propagate the necessary information for understanding.
As for the second category - the willful rejectors - I think most of them are just so convinced of the falsehood that if evolution is true then a totally materialistic worldview follows, and they find so much value and solace in their spiritual faith, that acceptance of evolution is an absolute horror for them. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 16:37:57 [Permalink]
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Marf noted:| I have to admit that I agree with Half's scale, though I think that first picture - although quite funny - is a bit mean. |
I agree. But I've had that photo for some time and have been wanting to share it. I just couldn't resist using it here. Shame on me. (Also, it was hard for me to find a photo of a well-known "Simple Ignoramus.") But at least my accompanying text was, I think, fair.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/01/2007 17:03:18 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 17:04:49 [Permalink]
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[i]Originally posted by HalfMooner
My point was that the dissemination of untruths is not always a simple matter of lying, but that there is a spectrum of motivations, ranging from pure, innocent ignorance, to pure, cynical deception.
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You do not think it possible that someone can understand the truth but come to a different conclusion based on that truth. That is why you think everyone that believes in the literal interpretation of the bible fits in those catagories. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 17:23:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
[i]Originally posted by HalfMooner
My point was that the dissemination of untruths is not always a simple matter of lying, but that there is a spectrum of motivations, ranging from pure, innocent ignorance, to pure, cynical deception.
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You do not think it possible that someone can understand the truth but come to a different conclusion based on that truth. That is why you think everyone that believes in the literal interpretation of the bible fits in those catagories.
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I think that anyone who has a good understanding of nature would believe in evolution.
Yes, I do feel that anyone who, for a religious reason (and this is almost exclusively the reason) rejects evolution is either innocently ignorant or cynically dishonest, or is at some point between these poles. I repeat: I'm open to seeing examples of positions that do not fit into this spectrum.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 17:54:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMoonerI repeat: I'm open to seeing examples of positions that do not fit into this spectrum.
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I gave you one but since you think it is impossible I assume you will ask this question over and over until you say I never answered it. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 17:59:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMoonerI repeat: I'm open to seeing examples of positions that do not fit into this spectrum.
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I gave you one but since you think it is impossible I assume you will ask this question over and over until you say I never answered it.
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Sorry, Robb, I didn't catch the name of that person you were referring to as not fitting into my proposed Creationist "spectrum." Nor do I understand this person's position, and how that excludes them. Could you please fill in some details?
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/01/2007 18:01:03 |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 18:46:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMoonerI repeat: I'm open to seeing examples of positions that do not fit into this spectrum.
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I gave you one but since you think it is impossible I assume you will ask this question over and over until you say I never answered it.
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Sorry, Robb, I didn't catch the name of that person you were referring to as not fitting into my proposed Creationist "spectrum." Nor do I understand this person's position, and how that excludes them. Could you please fill in some details?
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You asked for a position, not a name. What does it matter who since you do not believe that someone can hold the position I described. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 18:48:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Human motivation is often the most of difficult things to discern, but regardless of motivation, if the end result is the spreading of falsehoods, it isn't all that wrong of Dude to have called all people who disseminate untruths “liars.” |
But there you've changed the meaning of his words. When he says liars, it is clear from the OP quote that he means that they know they are spreading falsehoods. You've stripped this from the word and by doing so are saying something completely different.
Trying to remember, I can't seem to recall a single time when I've heard someone say liar without meaning that there was a known spreading of misinformation. Are there any examples outside of evolution/creaion where such a thing occurs? If not, then why have a different standard of who is a liar here?
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Okay, I may indeed have misunderstood, then misstated, what Dude meant. He can clear up that point. But his statement got me thinking on the lines of my OP's list of motivations. I'm not arguing with Dude (or you) on what he said or meant. My (mis)reading of what he wrote was simply the starting point and inspiration for the OP.
I do feel that some of us, not least myself, have sometimes been too quick to assume deliberate lying, when the real situation is a bit more complex. I'd really rather not go mining these fora for examples, due to both laziness and a desire not to make this personal. (If severely pressed, I might look up examples of how I personally erred this way.) But I suspect others may also recall instances where we may have misinterpreted the motivations of those who have stated blatant falsehoods.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 19:00:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by HalfMoonerI repeat: I'm open to seeing examples of positions that do not fit into this spectrum.
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I gave you one but since you think it is impossible I assume you will ask this question over and over until you say I never answered it.
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Sorry, Robb, I didn't catch the name of that person you were referring to as not fitting into my proposed Creationist "spectrum." Nor do I understand this person's position, and how that excludes them. Could you please fill in some details?
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You asked for a position, not a name. What does it matter who since you do not believe that someone can hold the position I described.
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I haven't yet seen a position "described" in any concrete manner, only your assertion that such a position exists. If it exists, I don't know what it is. I don't really need a name of a person. But if I could understand such a position and see it doesn't "fit," then this could invalidate my "spectrum" idea.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2007 : 19:14:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
Sorry to bring up so many issues. So just to be clear, for this thread, the word "lying" does not imply a deliberate intent to spread a known falsehood. Is that correct?
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That illustrates the difficulty of the issue under consideration, I think. I would prefer to think of "lying" mainly as being deliberate and conscious, but it's not completely wrong to consider the innocent, ignorant transmission of falsehoods to be "lying" as well, since the result is the same. People really ought to be held responsible for getting the "facts" they disseminate right. Then there are all the mind-bending positions that are between "innocent" transmission of falsehoods and deliberate lying.
I'm sorry that it's so hard for me to answer your question clearly with a yes or a no. The whole matter makes my head spin.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/02/2007 04:06:02 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2007 : 09:50:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
I think the vast majority of creationists fit into the first category.
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I agree. How many individuals believe, or think they know, something about evolution who are simply parroting what they have heard from the pulpit. Even my mother, who at 80 years old and still represents the best example of what it means to be a decent person, has made statements about evolution that were clearly not her own. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Lies and the Assorted Types Who Tell Them
